Quote from: EclipseXcrypto on Today at 07:29:22 AM

Quote from: Huliya on Today at 04:09:58 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 22, 2025, 04:24:40 PM

[edited out]

People have different ideas. They always think about profit. People want to get rich as soon as possible. No matter how much we tell them to invest instead of trading, they will only start trading when they get the opportunity. However, I would like to tell my fellow traders and investors that we should invest for the long term first, then secure our capital and trade at a rate of 10-15% per annum to meet our needs.

If a person wants to have a long-term view while investing in Bitcoin, he will actually focus on investing instead of trading. The advantage of long-term investing is that once you have placed your investments, you can let them grow over the years, providing opportunities for capital growth. Meanwhile, trading is like a gambling game, where you repeatedly buy and sell to trade the fluctuations in the stock price and make short-term profits or losses.

For example, let's say I start investing in Bitcoin in January 2025 and I plan to review the value of my accumulated Bitcoin in 2035. So what if I buy small amounts of Bitcoin regularly during this period? Then, even if the market price fluctuates at different times, it will achieve long-term growth for my investment, because Bitcoin has a long-term price growth trend.

Now suppose, I was trading during this period and sometimes bought Bitcoin and waited for the price to rise, and sometimes sold it immediately when the price fell, then my profit or loss would depend on the short-term market fluctuations. As a result, my risk exposure would be much higher. But, as a long-term investor, if I hold Bitcoin, even if the market drops a little, I will eventually achieve long-term growth.

Therefore, as an investor in Bitcoin, you should let it grow over time, and not let market fluctuations affect your investment.

After putting in the time and effort to secure your capital over a period of time, it doesn't make sense to risk it on trading for those quick gains. Even if you put 10-15% return per annum, the volatility and unpredictability of trading can easily wipe out the hard work you've put in. The odds are always against traders especially in a volatile market like bitcoin, its a gamble that often leads to more stress and potential losses than it's worth.

Thanks for pointing out that trading versus investing point in which it seems that Huliya was suggesting that it would be o.k. to trade 10-15% of his bitcoin every year or maybe expecting a profits of 10-15% on whatever bitcoin that he would be trading every year. To the extent that I understand what he is even saying, it seems a bit ridiculous to have those kinds of expectations of being able to get returns from trading.

When I first read that part of his post, I was thinking that he meant to put 10-15% per year into bitcoin, yet now I see that I had not read or understood it clearly..

I am not against the idea of some guys thinking that they have to get an income off of trading, and surely there can be some places (or situations) in which guys have trouble making money, so they find that their chances of making money are much greater to trade bitcoin (and even crypto) rather than trying to get income from the kinds of work that are available to them in their geography and/or their employable skill levels.

I am not unsympathetic to some traders making income from trades, and even some of the traders being good enough at trading that they are actually able to live off of the income, yet it is a rare trader who is both able to live off of his trading income and also able to build up funds to the side (such as building up a bitcoin stash) in order to be able to do better in those kinds of trading activities rather than to earn income from other sources and to inject that value into building his BTC stash over time.

Of course, there are some traders who figure it out, perhaps less than 5% of all of them, so the skill of being able to build an investment and to trade at the same time in a consistently profitable way (by guarding principle at least) is a pretty rare skill and it is way too common that traders are either not sufficiently enough disciplined and organized and/or they are not sufficiently able to segregate their investment accounts (their secure accounts) from their trading capital, so they end up risking and/or locking up investment money for too long of periods of time that either cause losses or failures of the investment money to gain as it should and/or to compound on itself over extended periods of time..... so they may well also calculate ways to make it seem that they are in profits yet they are also ignoring or downplaying some of the opportunity costs that ended up playing out when they would sometimes have large portions of their capital (perhaps even what they consider to be their non-trading capital) in the wrong places at the wrong time.

So it can be quite difficult to both build capital (and an investment fund) and to segregate trading in profitable ways (and to live off of trading proceeds) all at the same time, and pretty rare traders who actually can accomplish all of that in ways that are more profitable than the guy who has outside income and injecting that outside income into something like BTC. Of course, another thing that can be understandable is that there are some guys who earn such little money in regular kinds of work, so it can start to seem that it does not make much sense for them to be spending so much time in regular work that pays so little.. but then they still have very BIG dilemmas regarding how they are ever able to build up their capital (whether trading funds and/or investment funds) in order to really be able to get to a point that they can both profit from their various trades and also to be able to extract value from the funds to be able to live off of those funds...and a lot of that can become easier when there are outside income sources that at least pay for living expenses, so figuring out the balance of how much time to spend on outside work can become a difficult dilemma especially if there are difficulties finding work that both pays well and does not become too demanding on time and/or other energies that a guy might need for trading (for the guys thinking that they can actually regularly profit from trading).

Quote from: EclipseXcrypto on Today at 07:29:22 AM

Prioritizing and Sticking to a long-term investment strategy, can create a more stable financial foundation and allows you to reap the rewards of your patience and discipline without jeopardizing your previous efforts. The focus should be on steady growth rather than chasing after fleeting opportunities that could end up being detrimental. preserving what you have built and allowing it to grow sustainably.

For sure, if a person has an income that is separate from trading and separate from his investments, then he can use that income to build his investment stash and/or perhaps even to build his trading capital. There can be ways that income can also come from investment and/or from trading capital, and such income can come in systematic ways from either source, without depleting the source, yet it surely can be much more challenging to set up income streams from investment and/or trading capital, and perhaps even more difficult from trading capital since a central idea in trading is to move capital around and use the capital to leverage profits, to arbitrage and/or to find areas in which profits are potentially high and/or highly likely, yet the moving around of capital can end up in way more risk taking than intended and causing inabilities to rely on income flowing from it.. and seemingly even less so than potentially putting decent amounts of capital in some investment and then just calculating a reasonable income stream from the investment that does not deplete the investment because the amounts are already systematically calculated and the capital is not as likely to be moving around as much as a trader would end up doing.

Quote from: FortuneFollower on Today at 08:13:47 AM

Quote from: Abiky on Today at 12:56:44 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 21, 2025, 11:00:07 PM

Seems a bit of a crazy thought, even though there might be some connection with internet adoption and bitcoin, even though surely there are a decent number of countries with decently good internet adoption levels, yet still seeming reluctances about bitcoin...

There are still some reluctances about Bitcoin, because the world is not ready for it yet. Some governments rely on the old cash system (paper money) to keep the economic rolling. A radical transformation is necessary for Bitcoin to reach the masses. Slowly but surely, every country around the world will adopt BTC as its own. Russia, China, the UAE, and even Qatar are getting in the game.

We're still early, considering that CBDCs aren't even the norm yet. A long journey awaits for Bitcoin. The earlier you buy, the higher the chances you'll have of profiting in the future. Just invest wisely, and you'll have nothing to worry about.

Yep.
I do think that they just fear what they don't know and how it would work out for them, and then again, they have fiat, which worked for them like a clock. Why bother with crypto and BTC? Especially if you are a big and developed country already..

Hopefully, we are not mixing up bitcoin and crypto here in terms of talking about investing, so any entity whether governmental or institution can end up having similar issues as rich individuals who don't recognize/appreciate any need to be investing in bitcoin, since their fiat systems and fiat investments seem to be working sufficiently well for them, yet there are so many aspects of fiat systems that are messed up so that even well off entities are going to witness weak areas in their systems and their expectations and then figure out that maybe they should be hedging into bitcoin.. and yeah, since they may well be so dumb about bitcoin in the beginning, the dumb twats might not actually be able to recognize and/or appreciate the difference between bitcoin and crypto and so they might not at first figure out why their hedging should be in bitcoin and not in shitcoins (or crypto or various shitcoin related projects that are appearing to be like bitcoin, but aren't bitcoin).

Quote from: Huliya on Today at 05:37:59 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on Today at 04:59:11 AM

[edited out]

Let's say someone starts buying Bitcoin at a rate of $100 per week starting in January 2015, which is $5,200 per year and a total investment of $52,000 over 10 years. Now if we look at the price of Bitcoin, we can see that there has been quite a bit of change in the price of Bitcoin from 2015 to 2025.

If that person were to sell their holdings in 2025 at the current price of Bitcoin (i.e., $50,000), their total Bitcoin profit would be 35 BTC (on top of their total investment of $52,000). It is important to note here that the outcome of their investment is very clear, as it is possible to know exactly how much they invested each week. [My calculations may be wrong. I got some help from chat-gbt for the calculations. ,
Now, if we talk about a trader trading Bitcoin at the same time, the profit and loss would be very uncertain. A trader may make a temporary profit, but in a volatile market like Bitcoin, the chances of making a consistent profit are very low. As a result, the trader will not be able to earn up to 35 Bitcoins, and even if he makes a good profit once, he may lose more money later.

Now we can see that if the investor had used the DCA (Dollar Cost Averaging) method, his returns would have been stable and good, but there are many uncertainties and risks involved in trading, which may not ultimately yield a stable income.

The first sentence of your response seems to be just saying exactly what I had already said.. so those seem to be my words rather than yours.

Second, you might need to work through some of these comparison matters in your head and even read through my scenarios a bit more in order to attempt to make comparisons and in order to attempt to better be able to talk about making past comparisons as compared with making comparisons of what may or may not happen in the future. It becomes confusing if you are making comparisons that cross over timelines, including that someone who starts investing right now (or even starts trading right now) is starting from current circumstances, as compared with someone who might have started 10 years ago, 5 years ago or even a year or two ago, such as around the time of your forum registration date.

There is no problem to compare different timelines as long as there are attempts to be clear about who you might be comparing at any given point.. so if we are talking about trader versus investor, then it may well be better to pick the timeline of the comparison for that. If we are comparing an early investor to a later investor then that is another comparison point.. and surely the subject matter of this thread has to do with whether it is too late to buy, and surely I like to emphasize considerations of whether a person might be a no coiner right now or a low coiner right now and then to figure out what the guy might want to do... A no coiner is a bit more clear, since he has absolutely no coins, yet a low coiner might not be much different from a no coiner in terms of considering himself to not have enough coins, so then a low coiner would still end up getting into analyzing the extent to which he had already accumulated in order to figure out if it might be justified for such self-assessed low coiner to either stop accumulating bitcoin, to temper his accumulation or even to sell bitcoin with an expectation of buying back cheaper (which then gets us into trading behaviors).

It seems to me that you are presenting some of your ideas with a bit of gobbledy-gook kind of way since you are mixing ideas of comparing past and present and you are also not even using current prices, to the extent that $50k might be relevant in terms of evaluating what a guy with 35 BTC might want to do, might want to consider doing or even to consider what such guy might have done, if he had been accumulating BTC and then all of a sudden sold some or all of his BTC at either a lower price or at around our current price..

Also merely because a guy spent 10 years accumulating BTC and getting his stash up to 35 BTC with a mere $52k in capital, that still would not necessarily mean that he is going to want to sell some or all of those BTC right away or even sell such BTC in large chunks, even though he currently is able to value his current BTC stash and consider various options that he might have based on his having had accumulated such quantity of BTC over the past 10 years. The scenario may or may not be realistic in terms of the extent to which we might want to know other things about the guy that would have contributed to his ability to stay persistent and also why he might not have changed his behaviors at some point in the past 10 years, yet sometimes when we are presenting pure types in order to make comparisons, there still might not be very many people who might actually fit into such pure type without really knowing the context in which the guy might have had been in order to fit into the hypothetical person category.

Remember also that we might be wanting to compare what an investor might have done over the past 10 years as contrasted to what a trader might have done over the past 10 years, so one of the ways to make such comparison is to attempt to pick some kinds of pure or representative behaviors, so when we get to the end of the period, an investor would still be likely to treat his BTC stash in an investor kind of a way, which means that he is not necessarily going to transition into selling some or all of his BTC stash right away.. and a trader may well continue to trade through out the period.

Of course, in the real world we may well not have pure types, so it can sometimes become more difficult to make comparisons of what actual real people might have had ended up doing since there will be instances in which investors act like traders and traders act like investors, and so those non-pure types are more difficult to distinguish in systematic kinds of ways without getting bogged down in a myriad of details. To me it still seems quite helpful to try to compare various pure types, even though if we might be looking at what someone actually did, we end up having to get into the circumstances of that particular person, so even if we might be looking at our own performance over a period of time and where we might be in our own investment at any given time, we might see some value in trying to compare our own performance to our looking at where a pure type might have had been at the same point in time. ... so in that regard, we might consider if we might want to make adjustments to what we are doing, and so in that regard, on a personal level, I will frequently look at what a strict DCA person might have had done over a particular point in time, and to measure my own location and to consider if I am in a place that I want to be or if I might need to make some tweaks.

Surely the comparisons of where we are at and where we could have had been are likely going to be different for folks who might be in their early to mid accumulation stages as compared with someone who might consider that he has already reached his accumulation goals and perhaps feels that he has overaccumulated.. yet in regards to this thread, there seems to be a bit of a presumption that anyone contemplating accumulating bitcoin and considering whether it is too late would fit into the categories of not having had accumulated enough BTC yet, which seems to be the definitional status of a no coiner and/or a low coiner.

Quote from: Lembo69 on Today at 06:37:17 PM

As far as I understand as a newbie, there is nothing to be disappointed about the price of Bitcoin! Because the price of Bitcoin increases as it decreases! Therefore, it is certain that patience is sweet! You just have to wait until the price increases! Remember that after darkness comes light! Just like the sky is covered with clouds before the rain comes. After the rain comes, the sky becomes clear again! In the same way, the price of Bitcoin also increases!

Are you really saying anything Lembo69? What kind of a timeline are you playing? Are you trading or investing with your wishy-washy assessment that sometimes the BTC price goes up and then sometimes it goes down? Your superficial baloney, to the extent that you are even a person rather than a bot, sound more like a trader rather than investor's mentality.