Quote from: MusaPk on Today at 06:17:21 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on February 01, 2025, 11:25:29 PM

Surely newbie coiners are going to vary in regards to how long it might take them to just get started in bitcoin, so there are likely thresholds of learning that could help folks with level of conviction once they get past answering the question of "wether?" in the affirmative. Many times a person can jump in with an initial $10 with hardly any knowledge at all, and then learn as he goes.. so then the level of conviction would thereafter end up helping to potentially reinforce ideas of how much time, energy and value to invest into bitcoin, which also the level of conviction and the amount of time, energy value could end up playing out as reinforcing loops.. such as the more you learn, the stronger your conviction becomes and the more you end up investing... so you would not necessarily have high levels of conviction in the beginning and you might be very skeptical but still decide to start out with $10 or some other relatively small amount while researching further into both the bitcoin matter and also into how your own personal budget might fit into how much you are ready, willing and/or able to invest and whether on a weekly basis or some other kind of an investing frequency.

I think those guys who jump with 10$ or more without questioning much and in the mean time study Bitcoin are lucky one or wise. If one think that he need answer of all his questions before jumping into bitcoin then he might lose considerable time in getting started or didn't start at all. There are many tools available that can give you idea of how much profit you will get with specific investment. It's also human psyche that we take thing serious in which we have invested money, like people take paid online courses more seriously in which they have paid the fee compared to free online courses.

Yep exactly. Just getting started can be a big hurdle, and people tend to be very concerned about losing money. I recall helping someone into bitcoin in late 2014. I had seen a business bank account of a friend that had around $50k in cash, which surely was non working capital, and also the business did not really have any excuse to have that much cash that was not working since the business also had some other cash and other kinds of investments. The business could have easily operated with a cash cushion of around $10k, just based on the way the business was set up. After I told the owners (two partners) about bitcoin, they both told me that they were going to put some decent percentage of their cash into bitcoin, which I thought might end up being in the territory of $10k to $15k, and apparently after I spoke with them, they spoke amongst themselves, and one of the partners came to the conclusion that it was too risky to put any money into bitcoin. The one partner decided to put $2k into bitcoin and then another $2k for the other partner (without the other partner knowing or agreeing), which ended up resulting in the purchase of about 10.5 Bitcoin (since BTC prices were around $380 at that time).

So surely when I found out, I said that that I thought that they were being overly-whimpy based on their own financial situation, but agreed that they could do whatever they wanted since they were responsible for their own investment choices, and I also conceded that some investment into bitcoin was better to nothing.

Over the years, their bitcoin purchases did continue and they largely got up to 21 BTC or so and then sold at various points and perhaps had invested around $15k total into bitcoin and perhaps cashing out around $150k, and currently hold less than 3 BTC, including making quite a few mistakes along the way. Overall their bitcoin investment has done well for them, but the mistakes had taken away quite a bit of value and also they had continued to be fairly whimpy in their commitment to bitcoin investing, but did appreciate the cash machine status of it, even though a lot more emphasis on holding, security of their coins and perhaps sustainable withdraw could have put them in a much better place, but it is quite difficult to help people to help themselves, even though this business (friends of mine) did way better than some other folks that I tried to help over the years who really tended to end up selling 100% of their stash and then subsequently having regrets (but sometimes not admitting their regrets in very clear ways).

I think that part of the point of getting started is to get your foot in the door but then somehow there also should end up developing some kind of a long term HODLing conviction, which normies have difficulties getting themselves to such holding (and ongoing accumulation) conviction.

Quote from: MusaPk on Today at 06:17:21 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on February 01, 2025, 11:25:29 PM

I understand that not everyone is from the west, and so we have a lot of folks that have to struggle quite a bit to put together discretionary income in order to be in a position to invest into bitcoin.

I am glad you have understanding of this point. In my country, we have average income of 300$ per month. So even putting 10$ every week is quite challenging if you have 300$ of monthly income and has family to look after. In that case, side incomes like working here on bitcointalk and getting 100$ per month or more are a big bonus to invest in bitcoin.

If a person with $300 per month salary ends up feeling that he wants to get to $600 or even $1k per month in salary as a kind of fuck you status, then he still has to build up his investment amount, and I have mentioned several times that if you are ONLY investing 10% of your income, then it is going to take 10 years to get to a point of having had invested 1 year into bitcoin.. and surely that could still end up being good, and maybe a person who works for 40 years might have had ended up investing 4 years of income into bitcoin, but if bitcoin as an investment ends up paying off greater than other investments, their invested money would have had advantages of compounding in value.. especially the earlier years invested and especially if the poor people are not tempted to take out their investment at many points along the road. Yes.. I understand that poor people are going to be more tempted to withdraw from their bitcoin investment, so there is ONLY so much that any of us (on a forum like this) can help them to help themselves in terms of if they can consider ways that they might be able to increase their income and/or decrease their expenses, and yeah, I know that there is ONLY so much that is available from which to work when the incomes are so small....

so people have to figure out what they can do or how much they can do and if something like a signature campaign is going to end up helping them to supplement their regular income to be able to buy more bitcoin than they otherwise would have had been able to accomplish.

Quote from: MusaPk on Today at 06:17:21 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on February 01, 2025, 11:25:29 PM

Surely right around my first year in bitcoin (from late 2013 to late 2014), I was not really talking to anyone in my real life about bitcoin. It may have been that while I was investing into bitcoin I was continuing to study bitcoin and also figuring out my own level of conviction about bitcoin, yet I recall at the end of 2014, I started to recommend folks who I knew in my real life to invest into bitcoin and I started to send small amounts of bitcoin as gifts to people. There was a feature with the company Circle that allowed the sending of bitcoin with ONLY having an e-mail address, and so a person could send bitcoin and the sending of the bitcoin ONLY became irreversible (or officially sent to the person) once they opened their e-mail, yet if they did not open their e-mail then the transaction could be canceled and the bitcoin returned back to the senders account.

Quote from: JayJuanGee on February 01, 2025, 11:25:29 PM

It may have taken me a bit of time to develop an amount that I was recommending, but I frequently would say that a person should just invest $10 per week into bitcoin, yet after March 2020, I started to recommend that people in the west (at least those with some kind of meaningful discretionary income or other investments/assets) should invest $100 per week... so after March 2020, $100 per week became my recommended starting amount for people in the west. Surely the punchline is to do what you can, and surely a person investing $100 per week will end up with 10x more bitcoin 10 years down the road as compared with the person investing only $10 per week.. yet surely $10 per week might still be as much as some folks are able to set aside to invest into bitcoin.

In this thread I was trying to tell what's the benefit of investing in bitcoin i.e. if you just invest and forget about your investment. If someone can invest 100$ or more then it's best investment of current time. That doesn't mean people from other regions (like the one I described above with average income of 300$) should stop investing in bitcoin. Since anything investing in Bitcoin is better then not investing at all.

Your ongoing desire to pursue this theme of lump sum versus DCA continues to seem to be so misplaced.

Maybe you need to present some kind of hypothetical in which lump sum versus DCA would be relevant to the kinds of poor people that you are tending to describe?

Yeah, of course, there are many cases in which lump sum is better both in terms of investing early, but also in terms of having more options, yet you seem to want to pursue the investing early part, and we might not really know if injecting the whole lump sum right away is good or there might be advantages to deferring through DCA and/or buying on dips. Afterwards you can look back and proclaim what you should have had done.

There are going to be poor people who might have access to capital or even abilities to front load based on future earnings, yet it might not be a very good idea to front load an investment if the person might already have challenging cashflow situations in which they sometimes might not even have enough income to cover their expenses.. so these kinds of folks likely are going to need to have more back up funds available just for their own personal needs but even more so if they are trying to protect an investment (such as bitcoin) to such an extent that they are not going to be forced to sell some or all of their bitcoin at a time that is not at their complete choice of doing so.

It seems to me that you have some kinds of a specific poor person's situation in mind, and maybe you should present that situation instead of dancing around the scenario. I am tending to think that you might have a poor person who has some extra cash that really should be for his emergency funds (and back up funds) and that poor person wants to front load his bitcoin investment with that extra funds, and since bitcoin is likely to go up, he can just take his chances because lump sum works better than DCA...

And, yeah, that might work out and it might not. Many people become no coiners or end up having way the fuck fewer coins than they would have otherwise had because they are getting greedy and they are trying to get their emergency funds and their back up funds to work for them and they think they got it all figured out until they are fucked because they have to sell their bitcoin at a time that is not of their own choosing because they have no other option and no other funds available to them.

So, I would suggest to stop thinking such greedy thoughts about getting rich quicker than your resources can support, and just continue to invest into bitcoin as aggressively as you can without overdoing it and recking yourself and becoming another statistic of a person who could have had done quite well in bitcoin but they ended up overdoing it and recking themselves out of their own coins.

Quote from: MusaPk on Today at 06:17:21 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on February 01, 2025, 11:25:29 PM

Of course, another consideration might be how much of our gross income that we might invest into bitcoin, and so in my earlier years, I would recommend between 1% to 10%, and after March 2020, I started to recommend 5% to 25% of gross income invested into bitcoin, yet surely that is assuming any money invested into bitcoin would come from discretionary income rather than money that is needed for expenses. Surely we could appreciate that a person investing 10% of his gross income into bitcoin would take 10 years to reach 1 year's income invested into bitcoin, yet a person investing 25% into bitcoin would be able to reach 1 whole year of income invested into bitcoin ONLY after 4 years... so levels of aggressiveness can make a difference, yet at the same time, bitcoin remains a great asymmetric bet to the upside, so you are correct that even a relatively small amount invested on a consistent and regular basis may well end up with still having great returns over a long period of time.

We have now history of bitcoin where we can easily see how much benefit we have in investing in bitcoin. The more bullish you are towards bitcoin accumulation, the better you see results. You are right that whatever we invest in Bitcoin should come from discretionary income and we must secure money that is required for daily living.

Past performance does not equal future results, and so we can ONLY do our best to invest as aggressively into bitcoin as we are able to invest without overdoing it, and we are not guaranteed that we will do it correctly or that our results will be as good as if we had done something else. Yet, one of the great things about creating our own track record is that we can go back and analyze various parts of our track record, and even if we cannot change what we did at that time, we can see various ways that we might have made improvements or various places that we might have had averted making mistakes because we stuck with our course.

My own current situation has more than 30 years of back record, and surely my level of sophistication got better and my kinds of tracing and projection got better (including several of my earliest projections were on paper and harder to keep track of). In any event, even if some of the standards had changed and some of what I knew then were not known to me at that time about the future, I can go back and see some of my then future projections and see that bitcoin likely ended up helping to improve the results of my future projections quite a bit beyond my various earlier versions of future projections.

If anyone is earlier in their building of an investment portfolio (presumably having a certain amount of focus on BTC accumulation), then there may be certain points down the road, 10 years from now, 20 years from now or some other points in which you have various changes in your investment focus, but sure it could still be that your investment is still bitcoin and cash even 30 years or more down the road.