Quote from: Derekfunds on Today at 08:14:21 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on Today at 06:37:18 AM

Quote from: Findingnemo on March 21, 2025, 06:58:27 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 21, 2025, 03:02:40 PM

But for those business owners that have just started the business, and haven't reached ROI yet, you should merely concentrate on the business. Bitcoin will merely be a distraction. But if the business has reached ROI and has paid for the money loaned to start the business, THEN use some of the business' profit to save and HODL in Bitcoin.

That's just a rookie mistake, they just assume that it's always going to be up and up while the reality is different, creating a business is easy if they have capital but making it profitable is the real task and to get ROI it will be atleast 3-5 years on an average so the focus should be completely on that if we are talking about business that is just handled by ourselves.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 21, 2025, 03:02:40 PM

Plus for those people who want to start a business merely because they "don't want to work for someone else", I believe you should think about it carefully before leaving your job. It's harder to start and boot-strap an actual business than working for someone else.

It's due to the influence of social media motivational speakers, they just spit things without telling the real story behind it. And it made lot of people to think that I can do this, but at the end it's just that they dug their own grave.

If we think about it more clearly, if a person who wants to get a bank loan to start a business can work around, trick the bank, and diversify the funds to BUY BITCOIN, I believe that would have a higher probability of success to be in profit within FIVE YEARS than actually starting a business.

It's laughable because it's TRUE.

You are right but I think it depends on the amount you want to loan and the kind of business you want to venture into, there are some business you will put in enough capital and in less than a year you would make half of the initial capital if not more depending on the business and so if this is the kind of business you venture into I doubt if putting such capital into Bitcoin investment will bring as much profit as that business in the interval of 5 years as you said even though Bitcoin has a great potential. Remember Bitcoin is very volatile and so it can take a while before it can skyrocket and even after skyrocketing there will still be a Dip. To an extent I think this comparison is 50/50.

Of course, you are free to believe what you like, including that starting a business is close to the same probabilities of success as investing into bitcoin. You surely seem to be grappling with your own understanding what bitcoin is, even though surely there can be advantages that come with business ownership, even though financially I doubt that starting a business is close to the same as your odds of success in investing into bitcoin over a 5-year timeline.

Quote from: chigo on Today at 08:40:56 AM

Quote from: CcnoutChopper19 on Today at 12:11:38 AM

Okay, I will try to draw a conclusion here that it means that aggressive actions should not be involved in accumulation, there is a little tolerance only when you are experienced enough or have really good financial management and arrangements and maybe there are some beginners who have good financial management from the start but of course everything must still be measured because in any case the risk will always lurk, but overall in my opinion the best for beginners is to avoid various actions that tend to be aggressive and it is better to accumulate with a small/ideal amount every time you do DCA allocation even though for example they have a fairly good financial situation in their life.

if you only allocate a small portion of your money when doing DCA then later you will definitely increase your money when you just realize that what you are doing will bring you great fortune. DCA is also not for those who do not have stable finances, it is difficult to do DCA if your finances are not stable so I suggest you have a stable income first out there then you can do DCA happily without any obstacles.

You seem to have a narrow definition of DCA, especially since DCA does not have to be on a strict schedule. You can have irregular income and irregular expenses, and as long as you have discretionary income, you can invest into bitcoin from your discretionary income, even if both the timeline and the amount vary based on your income and/or expenses irregularities.

Quote from: chigo on Today at 08:40:56 AM

DCA is a great concept when you are a beginner in investing in bitcoin, just think of it as building a small business that will slowly become big too, as long as you are consistent and don't do stupid things like making losses, then don't doubt the effectiveness of DCA in the future.

Sure. DCA is good for beginners, but it is also good for experienced investors.

Quote from: MainIbem on Today at 10:40:52 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on Today at 12:17:29 AM

Quote from: CcnoutChopper19 on Today at 12:11:38 AM

Okay, I will try to draw a conclusion here that it means that aggressive actions should not be involved in accumulation, there is a little tolerance only when you are experienced enough or have really good financial management and arrangements and maybe there are some beginners who have good financial management from the start but of course everything must still be measured because in any case the risk will always lurk, but overall in my opinion the best for beginners is to avoid various actions that tend to be aggressive and it is better to accumulate with a small/ideal amount every time you do DCA allocation even though for example they have a fairly good financial situation in their life.

It is up to each person to figure out the level of aggressiveness or whimpiness that they want to employ, and surely some people are in a better position to be aggressive fromthe start as compared with others, even though I would think that most reasonable people are going to want to tailor their level of aggressiveness, and as they become more confident in bitcoin they likely would ramp up their level of aggressiveness. It is hard to speak for others, and surely it can take people a while to recognize and/or appreciate the strength in bitcoin's investment thesis that would justify them being more aggressive in their bitcoin accumulation (and/or management of their bitcoin holdings once they have reached targeted accumulation levels).

Welll said Mr Jay, people forget that everyone's level of aggressiveness can't be same when it comes to accumulation of Bitcoin, some people whether old/newbies are opportuned to very financially okay to start their investment journey with buying aggressively even while doing the DCA for instance you'll see some buying daily to a certain point but that doesn't mean that someone who's not doing so ain't on the track, every investor should have their target and invest according to their financial capabilities one don't need to be over aggressive cause their friend who's an investor is doing so whereas they're not very financial strong to do same, it doesn't matter whether one is a beginner or not once one is very financially stable to invest aggressively and understands the concepts of it then follow it amicably then they're good to go so far they don't go against the concept of Bitcoin investment while trying to be aggressive, some investors make the mistake of imitating others instead of investing according to their financial capabilities. For instance, the fact that Saylor at some point was investing daily doesn't mean that investors should do so too just cause they look up to him as a mentor or so whereas they can't keep up with buying daily, that's why I said ever investor should do so according to their financial capabilities.

Another thing is that level of aggressiveness should largely be based on financial capabilities rather than fucking around trying to figure out BTC price in gambling kinds of ways, but yeah, there still could be times in which level of aggressiveness might relate to price too.

So, for example, there could be times in which a person might have various extra expenses or changes in his income, so he might end up having to be whimpy in his bitcoin investment during those times, and then there may be other times in which his income is high and/or his expenses are low so he can be more aggressive during those times. There may also be times in which he is running high in his reserve funds, and he can choose to be more aggressive if he wants to, and he might choose his level of aggressiveness based on where he is at in his bitcoin accumulation journey and that also might include his perception of the price at that time.

Surely, I would like to dissuade brand new investors from preoccupying themselves with the BTC price, yet surely when we are already choosing to be aggressive in our bitcoin investment journey, sometimes our level of aggressiveness might vary with price, even though we might also have a set amount of bitcoin that we are buying every week, we also might have some amount of money that we are holding on the side to increase our level of aggressiveness, and in either case we are not waiting or slowing down in our ongoing bitcoin buying even though we might be trying to strategize with our BTC purchase amounts during certain periods of time.

Quote from: Ruttoshi on Today at 12:28:12 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on Today at 06:37:18 AM

Quote from: Findingnemo on March 21, 2025, 06:58:27 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 21, 2025, 03:02:40 PM

But for those business owners that have just started the business, and haven't reached ROI yet, you should merely concentrate on the business. Bitcoin will merely be a distraction. But if the business has reached ROI and has paid for the money loaned to start the business, THEN use some of the business' profit to save and HODL in Bitcoin.

That's just a rookie mistake, they just assume that it's always going to be up and up while the reality is different, creating a business is easy if they have capital but making it profitable is the real task and to get ROI it will be atleast 3-5 years on an average so the focus should be completely on that if we are talking about business that is just handled by ourselves.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 21, 2025, 03:02:40 PM

Plus for those people who want to start a business merely because they "don't want to work for someone else", I believe you should think about it carefully before leaving your job. It's harder to start and boot-strap an actual business than working for someone else.

It's due to the influence of social media motivational speakers, they just spit things without telling the real story behind it. And it made lot of people to think that I can do this, but at the end it's just that they dug their own grave.

If we think about it more clearly, if a person who wants to get a bank loan to start a business can work around, trick the bank, and diversify the funds to BUY BITCOIN, I believe that would have a higher probability of success to be in profit within FIVE YEARS than actually starting a business.

It's laughable because it's TRUE.

I wouldn't love to start my bitcoin long-term investment like that since it's like trading and not investing. This is because you don't know what the future has for bitcoin and it's not good to invest in bitcoin with funds that's not your discretionary income that you can do away with. Investing in bitcoin is not a business that you are taking a loan to invest in for 5 years and expect to sell back to pay your loan.

You will remain sleepless night throughout that five years without rest of mind and whenever bitcoin price dips, you will panic. Infact, your blood pressure will be high. It's better I start my bitcoin investment with as low as $10 and keep my bitcoin accumulation ongoing, regularly with consistent and persistent for that 4-10 years and above. Look for a means to increase my income so that i can invest aggressively than going through the loan way. I mustn't buy 1 full bitcoin or see bitcoin as a way to make profits.

It can be difficult to get a loan over 5 years, and surely you could choose to invest into bitcoin with that loan rather than into a business, and sure it is likely better to make sure that the loan terms are otherwise good, and you have abilities to pay for the loan from proceeds other than the bitcoin investment in the event that the bitcoin investment is not profitable by the time the loan comes due.. and sure, maybe we would assume that there are something like monthly servicing payments that are due, and perhaps the interest rate should be reasonable, perhaps 6% or lower.

Getting a loan is a way to front load an investment, and sure it has costs and risks that may or may not justify doing it. A lot of people use debt to their advantage, especially if they are able to find places to put the debt that likely are going to provide greater returns than the cost of servicing the debt. with bitcoin it is helpful to have loans that are more than 4 years in their length.. even though sometimes shorter duration loans might also be acceptable so long as their terms are reasonable and you are able to service the loan from money and/or proceeds other than the asset being invested into (bitcoin in this case).

Quote from: Taskford on Today at 01:10:34 PM

Quote from: len01 on Today at 12:44:58 PM

Quote from: chigo on Today at 08:40:56 AM

DCA is also not for those who do not have stable finances, it is difficult to do DCA if your finances are not stable so I suggest you have a stable income first out there then you can do DCA happily without any obstacles.

So you think someone who wants to invest in bitcoin must have a stable income to implement the DCA strategy? And no one should invest in bitcoin if they don't have a stable income?

For me such assumption is very wrong and DCA strategy has no such rule. Even anyone can invest their money to save in bitcoin with only $1 every week or monthly.
I know someone in 2022 and he only makes about $50-$70 a week and it's not stable. But he can still do DCA to spend $2 on BTC every week.

What can you sustain on your investment if you don't have stable income? Everything will fall apart if you encounter financial issues since you might think about selling your Bitcoin if you don't have any option left.
So much better to find ways to create stable source of income so that there would be no problem arise towards your investment. We are talking about long term here and for sure we don't want to fail just because of small reasons.

Would be good for people if they can make everything sustainable since they can increase their chance to succeed without getting bothered by any financial disturbance.

The reality of the matter is that it is quite likely an overwhelming majority of the people around the world neither have stable incomes nor can they expect to have stable incomes for 4-10 years or longer into the future. So, many times they are doing their best to maintain as much income as they can and as low expenses as they can in order to be able to invest into something like bitcoin. An overwhelming majority of the people around the world also do not have investments, yet bitcoin provides an opportunity to invest small amounts, such as $10 per week or whatever increment of discretionary income comes available, and it does not have to be regular in order to be investable.

We would not want the perfect become the enemy of the good.. and people do what they can to attempt to improve their circumstances, and bitcoin seems to be a great vehicle to provide such opportunity, so long as people invest within their means and do not over do it and end up wrecking themselves due to their own lack of cashflow management skills.

Quote from: Ricardo11 on Today at 03:01:57 PM

Quote from: Taskford on Today at 01:10:34 PM

[edited out]

The issue of financial stress must be resolved in advance by the investor. Because financial distress or distress is a normal occurrence during an emergency, but if there is no other solution for that situation at that time, this problem can damage the investor's holdings. Which can cause a lot of losses for the investor.
Therefore, creating a reliable source of income is very important for investors, and keeping an emergency fund for financial security is equivalent to a kind of obligation.
Basically, the investor must take all kinds of steps to protect his holdings. He must be prepared in advance to deal with any future emergency situation. And he must create various sources of income.
If he is careful about these things, there is no possibility of major losses from Bitcoin investment, because he can hold his holdings for a long time without any obstacles.

Creating strong cashflow management systems and doing everything correctly does not completely eliminate risks of loss, but it does mitigate and lessen the likelihood of losses and maybe even helping to create situations in which losses end up being much smaller than they would have had been if the strong cashflow management systems had not been in place.

Quote from: BitBakerr1 on Today at 05:38:52 PM

Quote from: Jewan420 on Today at 05:10:12 PM

Quote from: Stormisover on Today at 02:52:16 PM

I think you don't understand my point what I am saying is that having a stable source of income is very good but it is not a criteria that you must first have a stable source of income before one can start a Bitcoin investment, you can be accumulating Bitcoin with the little money you have so far is from your discretionary income while at the same time you will be working on your finances, if everybody should be waiting until they have a stable source of income maybe there are so many that have Bitcoin investment today that wouldn't have got in to it as when they started. Anyone who truly have Bitcoin investment in their mind after getting started will never give up on working on their finances for sustainability of their investment.

With your plan for a stable income source, I doubt whether it would be the right step for an investor to enter into investment without preparing a stable income source. Ensuring a stable income source before starting investment is one of the basic conditions of investment. If you want to work on a source of income after starting investment, then the money you start investing with must be unnecessary money that you are ready to lose and you will never need in the future. In this case, you may have to face some threats, such as not finding a stable income source at the right time, which may have a negative impact on your holdings or not finding a source of income at the right time, which may cause your investment to suffer losses. That is why I think ensuring a stable income source before starting investment means a strong foundation for your investment structure. If you have the ability, it is possible to start investing without a stable income source, but I have doubts about its longevity.

Let me make it clear that without a stable source of income it is impossible to succeed in long term Bitcoin investment even if you have a very strong backup funds it will run dry as time goes on and before you no it you will start dipping hands into your Bitcoin investment, nothing can save your bitcoin investment if you don't have a stable income, and just like you said one needs to have a stable source of income before starting his or her Bitcoin investment journey because if you start bitcoin investment without having a source of income and then hoping to find one when you have already started then you are taking a very big risk and is 50/50 you may succeed and you may not so before you start reason all this.

Many of you guys seem to be mixing up having a strong income source with having discretionary income. In order to invest all you need is discretionary income not a sustainable income source.

Sure, if a person is going to keep investing, they have to keep generating discretionary income.

And in order to sustain the investments into bitcoin that they already made, they have to generate enough income to pay for their living expenses.

A strong source of income is not a prerequisite to investing into bitcoin, even if it is a nice thing to have and even though it is better if a person has a strong income, but a strong income source is not needed in order to get started investing into bitcoin.

Quote from: suzanne5223 on Today at 06:19:47 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on March 21, 2025, 04:03:50 PM

Quote from: SOKO-DEKE on March 21, 2025, 02:05:52 PM

I don’t see reason that beginners need to study about the Bitcoin market before they start their bitcoin investment journey ,It is not necessary to study any market. All beginners need is basic knowledge of buying Bitcoin and the best wallet they can use to store their Bitcoin.

A beginner to bitcoin does not need to learn about bitcoin wallets before starting to invest into bitcoin.

SOKO-DEKE There's nothing bad for beginners learning about the Bitcoin market (particularly the 4-year cycle which will give them more understanding about BTC inflation control, and volatility).

JayJuanGee They don't need to learn about how to use a wallet before investing in Bitcoin but what will happen if they lack the knowledge on how they will keep their BTC safe when we're in the season where it is more important for people to hold their BTC in self-custodial wallets?

I am not proclaiming to know all of the answers, yet I know that it is a bit too much to proclaim that a beginner has to learn how to self-custody prior to getting started investing into bitcion.

Yes, it is preferred that a person holds most of his coins in self-custody, perhaps 90% or more, but still, self custody is not a prerequisite to getting started in bitcoin.

Furthermore if a person keeps coins on exchanges (or otherwise with third-parties) he should realize that he is running risks that he could lose some or all of those coins, which should help to motivate him to learn about self-custody and to employ self-custody.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions, including if they choose to remain so dumb as to keep all of their coins on exchanges, so even though I am saying that a person does not need to learn about self-custody in order to start investing into bitcoin, I am not recommending keeping coins on exchanges for extended periods of time or that it is a good habit to keep very many coins at all on any exchanges (or with third parities), I personally would not recommend any more than 10% of your coins being held with third parties at any given time, even though surely there are folks who are way more tolerant of various forms of third-party custody.

Quote from: SOKO-DEKE on Today at 07:36:42 PM

How can you be sure that within five years, you will make enough profit to cover both the loan and the interest apply to loan from bank.

In order to justify the taking of a loan to buy bitcoin, you do not have to make enough profit to cover both the loan and the interest, even though you need to be able to make sure that you are able to pay back the loan whether the investment (into bitcoin) pays off or not.

You are taking a risk.. and sure you wish that the investment into bitcoin pays off greater than the cost ofthe loan, but it is not a prerequisite that bitcoin has to pay off greater than the loan in order to justify taking the loan and taking the chances that bitcoin will perform better than the terms of the loan over the timeline of the loan.. .it may and it may not, yet it still may be a good bet to take it.. but it is not an obvious answer, since not everyone would choose to enter into such loan, even if they know that they are going to be able to pay off the loan from other income sources in the event that the underlying bitcoin does not perform well during that time.