Quote from: Merit.s on May 13, 2025, 07:02:28 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 13, 2025, 05:57:20 AM

Quote from: Tonimez on May 13, 2025, 05:41:09 AM

Quote from: DubemIfedigbo001 on May 13, 2025, 04:42:32 AM

Quote from: BitBakerr1 on May 12, 2025, 09:10:41 PM

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I always like to describe over accumulation phase with respect to quantity and not necessarily daily expenses. Yes, we always have an accumulation target at the beginning of our accumulation journey and going well above it can suggest the percentage of over accumulation we have come to achieve.

lets take for example, my initial target is to accumulate 10BTC within the range of 20 years, if I am able to achieve a cumulative stash of 12BTC within the said period, then I am 20% into over accumulation stage, if I got 14BTC, then I am 40% into over accumulation stage.

If I have initially planned the latter part of my life around the 10BTC target and I end up getting 14BTC, then I have a 40% additional cushion to leverage upon. It is still possible to reset your accumulation target from the 10BTC plan to 15BTC and get back into accumulation phase, surpass it and achieve overaccumulation stage for the second time. it all boils down to your target.

This is very educative as I've come to reconcile the context of over accumulation from this. The accumulation process and target is key to achieving the accumulation goal which whatever comes later is an over accumulation. But after over accumulation, the person sells and would he now limit his investments to buying dips? Or would he proceed later to buy at a loss? Or would he stop accumulating and maintain his accumulation target?

This is some of the few reasons why I argued the existence of over accumulation as long as a person is still working. Setting a new target could be an option as you have mentioned. Just to keep a person in the system. Accepting and over accumulation may lead to a sell, sell, sell, line of action.

I personally believe that a person starts to have more flexibility in regards to managing his holdings once he reaches overaccumulation status, and a person does not reach such status in order to fall out of it, but instead to stay in such overaccumulation status, so then he would be able to start to sell small amounts of BTC, but still staying in overaccumulation status.. so he might start with price based sustainable withdrawal before he moves into time-based sustainable withdrawal, yet being in overaccumulatoin status provides options regarding how to mange BTC holdings and the extent to which to stop accumulating and/or to start to sell whether price based or time based.

I agree with you JJG that staying on your level of over accumulation is the best when you have achieved it, rather than feeling that you have reached your level of over accumulation and start selling too many bitcoin too early to the point that it takes you below your over accumulation status and you start thinking of accumulating again.

In life, progress means increasing in your financial dealing or knowledge in whatever you are doing and not declining from the ladder. Maintaining the level of wealth that you have so that you don't depreciate from your current level shows sign of good financial management, but when you are going down financially can be said to be based on poor financial management.

When one have reach over accumulation, you still need to maintain that stage, and using the sustainable withdraw approach provided by you will keep one's bitcoin investment, to keep on compounding in value overtime because your withdrawal is not affecting the size of your portfolio. Some investors thinks that after reaching their over accumulation target, it's time for them to start preying on their bitcoin investment and relying solemly on it for survival. When we have made the availability of other streams of income, our bitcoin investment will only be a supplement after reaching over accumulation stage.

It may well be that the ideas of reaching overaccumulation, and then how to mange overaccumulation once you get to overaccumulation status, these ideas might not make a lot of sense until you get there, at least if you might be thinking in terms of sustainable withdrawal rather than just reaching some high status and then selling all of the bitcoin, which makes very little sense to spend 4-10 years or more accumulating bitcoin and then perhaps even waiting for it to mature in order to sell all of it.. rather than figuring out how to employ some kind of a sustainable withdrawal that pretty much means that you can live off of your bitcoin for the rest of your life.

Quote from: tiCeR on May 13, 2025, 07:17:00 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 13, 2025, 05:57:20 AM

Quote from: Tonimez on May 13, 2025, 05:41:09 AM

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I personally believe that a person starts to have more flexibility in regards to managing his holdings once he reaches overaccumulation status, and a person does not reach such status in order to fall out of it, but instead to stay in such overaccumulation status, so then he would be able to start to sell small amounts of BTC, but still staying in overaccumulation status.. so he might start with price based sustainable withdrawal before he moves into time-based sustainable withdrawal, yet being in overaccumulatoin status provides options regarding how to mange BTC holdings and the extent to which to stop accumulating and/or to start to sell whether price based or time based.

Overaccumulation is probably going to be a moving target for quite some time. For the sake of putting a plan in place and making sure you understand how to pursue it, having a target is good and important. But it will be more of a snapshot as long as bitcoin has the potential to go many x times up in market capitalization.

If someone has the patience and the discipline to stick to a long term BTC accumulation plan, isn't it more likely that such individual could well end up not having to move to any withdrawal plans at all? This is not a rule of thumb of course as there are still individual circumstances involved, but if someone now begins to build up BTC holdings for the next 10 years straight, maybe 20 years straight, I can imagine that holding those BTC will put that individual into a position of vast flexibility. There is probably still some income from other sources and those BTC holdings could serve as a security guarantee when more costly items have to be purchased, but income from other sources could be used without touching those BTC.

There surely are alternative theories in regards to how to treat your bitcoin, including that you could have alternative sources of income and have the bitcoin sitting in the background or even as collateral.. Of course, you could sell bitcoin some of your bitcoin to buy investment property that generates income, yet I think that largely negates the value of having money in bitcoin, even though surely younger people sometimes do what to buy properties or businesses in order to leverage their labor in such a way that they are able to earn more than they would through a regular job.. yet those kinds of strategies would likely come prior to reaching overaccumulation status (while still working to reach overaccumulation status).

From my perspective there is a lot of power in getting to and sustaining overaccumulation status, yet I can also see how guys might end up screwing up their having had gotten to such overaccumulation status, after they got there by engaging in behaviors that end up kicking themselves back out of overaccumulation status... but yeah, of course, each person is responsible for his own actions related to managing his holdings once he gets them to a sufficiently high level.

Quote from: tiCeR on May 13, 2025, 07:17:00 AM

I think in 10 or even 20 years from now, the ecosystem will have evolved further.

You are probably correct. Right now, the various entities giving out loans and using bitcoin as collateral are not really giving very great terms, yet guys still want to get into those loan products that are not really very good.. and from my perspective there could be value in just outright selling small portions of your bitcoin, yet I am assuming reasonably high levels of overaccumulation.... and sure at the same time, I am surely not opposed to the possible employment of a variety of strategies and guys not becoming too greedy in terms of electing their strategies or putting too much of their bitcoin at risk, especially when dealing with collateralized products and/or products that end up taking away our custodian status of the bitcoin (so the coins will end up getting rehypothecated when loaning them out.).

Quote from: tiCeR on May 13, 2025, 07:17:00 AM

Higher acceptance, advanced regulatory environment, increased realization that bitcoin is incredibly scarce and not holding any is probably more costly than buying some (fraction), perhaps smart contract based possibilities to make money with BTC holdings, children or relatives who want to keep holdings within the family instead of selling it...

Like you mentioned, there surely can be a variety goals that any of us might have, and we may well have to adapt our bitcoin maintenance to various changes in the regulatory environment too. some guys are already reaching such over accumulatoin status, some are close to reaching such status and some guys might take 4-10 years or longer to reach such status, and sure some guys might even take 20 years or more to reach overaccumulation status.

Quote from: tiCeR on May 13, 2025, 07:17:00 AM

I say this because many people pursue wealth and once they acquired it, something changes in their mindset and the dream about spending it all when the time has come, starts to vanish. Bitcoin will be one of those assets you know you may never get a chance to get it back for the same price. That has an effect on withdrawal decisions for most people.

Surely a lot of guys will make mistakes along the way that include selling too much too soon and also which involves failing to adequately plan for their management of both getting to overaccumulation status and maintaining themselves in overaccumulation status by employing various forms of sustainable withdrawal (price based and/or time based). Surely it helps to participate in threads like this, yet guys still have to end up employing reasonable strategies especially if they would like their bitcoin to keep them well-off and avoid blowing too much of their wadd too soon. Bitccoin surely can be quite powerful, but yeah, if guys end up selling way too much too soon and speculating that they are going to be able to beat the market, then they might find out the hard way that they had sold too much too soon, yet like you suggested, by then it is likely too late to recover from mistakes that might have been a result of actions taken 4-10 years early... and surely even if guys make mistakes along the way, there are ways to learn from mistakes and hope that the mistakes that are made are not too detrimental.

Quote from: Ambatman on May 13, 2025, 07:53:27 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 13, 2025, 05:57:20 AM

I personally believe that a person starts to have more flexibility in regards to managing his holdings once he reaches overaccumulation status, and a person does not reach such status in order to fall out of it, but instead to stay in such overaccumulation status, so then he would be able to start to sell small amounts of BTC, but still staying in overaccumulation status.. so he might start with price based sustainable withdrawal before he moves into time-based sustainable withdrawal, yet being in overaccumulatoin status provides options regarding how to mange BTC holdings and the extent to which to stop accumulating and/or to start to sell whether price based or time based.

Okay I think u understand your perspective on overaccumulation.
What about looking at it from this angle. The over there means you have gone past your limit.
Limit here to me isn't goal since goals tend to be refreshed.
Humans are insatiable so when they hit a goal they may push for another as long as its within the range of possibilities.

I have given examples in the past of a guy right now who may require a $80k annual salary to replace his current $60k income, so then he has an extra $20k that he is expecting to draw from bitcoin before he quits his $60k per year job and starts to draw $80k per year from his bitcoin stash. He sees that right now he would need 17.008 BTC in order to sustain his desired $80k per year income, yet he happens to have had accumulated close to 25 BTC.. so he is largely 8 bitcoin overaccumulated, and so he has a lot of extra flexibility by having that level of overaccumulation.

Of course, he does not need to have that 8 Bitcoin extra, which is more that 30% overaccumulated in order have confidence to be able to live off of his current bitcoin stash, yet it still does make him feel good to have that level of extra bitcoin in case he might have had miscalculated and also in order to attempt to account for teh various ups and downs of the future market and other uncertainties that exist in life.

If he barely is at 17 bitcoin, he might end up screwing things up and maybe if he just has 18 or 19 BTC, he might feel that he does not have a large enough overaccumulation cushion to feel confident in his giving up his job and starting to draw upon his bitcoin in what he believes to be a sustainable way..

Quote from: Ambatman on May 13, 2025, 07:53:27 AM

What am trying to say is, I think overaccumulating is getting more than you can afford to have. Say accumulation > Capacity.

I would say that it is having more than you actually need, and there is a bit of a cushion.. and yeah, sure maybe some guys got lucky and they were accumulating bitcoin aggressively in the past 8 years or so, and then after that many years, the bitcoin might ended up building up to be eough or more than enough bitcoin to sustain the sought after income level.

I understand your hint about some guys never being satisfied too.. with the quantity of their bitcoin, yet at the same time there might be at some point tht they realize that that they have enough or they have more than enough, and even if the guy might start to withdraw from his bitcoin holdings, and if he is withdrawing at a rate that is way lower than the authorized amount, then his bitcoin stash may well be continuing to grow much faster than the rate that he is withdrawing it, even accounting for the debase ment of the currency and his increasing his income by 10% per year... so the first year, he might draw $80k, and then the second year he withdraws $88k, and then the third year he withdraws $96.8k, and then he keeps increasing it 1% each year, but his bitcoin holdings continues to grow in values (as expressed in dollars) more than the 10% annual increases that he continues to give himself.

Quote from: Ambatman on May 13, 2025, 07:53:27 AM

Let's use this scenario
Say A cup and is been filled with water. When it gets overfulled any other addition becomes a waste except the cup capacity is increased or another is added to collect the excess.

Sure. Having extra bitcoin beyond the accumulation goals is not a bad thing, and having extra does seem to give more options.

Quote from: Promocodeudo on May 13, 2025, 07:54:18 AM

Quote from: Churchillvv on May 12, 2025, 11:16:11 PM

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@Churchillvv I love it when a bitcoiner makes a detailed explanation on how things are supposed to be in the overall accumulation stage of this journey, I must say am very much pleased with your explanation and understanding in reagerds to this journey, should we even in the first place discuss anything relating to selling of some fractions of our Bitcoin at this stage, some of us here have not been into this journey for 2cycles which is about 8years if am not mistaking, let's say some have been here for 10years or there about but can any of those people tell us that they are satisfied with the amount they've accumulated so far to even think of selling or taking profit, I think we should rethink, if we keep having this kind of mindset how are we going to stay focused in doing the needful till the future, at this point I think is better we give attention to major thing which is consistent continuous accumulation just as you said instead of trying to divert our attention to something that may even discourage us, as for me I am not still satisfied with my portfolio yet, I believe some persons are not too, to be sincere i still have time, am not even in any way thinking of selling soon, long-term of about 18 or more years is my target but that'll also be if I have gotten to level of my satisfaction, JJG concept towards Bitcoin accumulation should always be our guide to having a bulky portfolio overtime.

I agree that some guys might end up needing 15-20 years or more in order to reach an overaccumulation status, and surely there is nothing wrong with that, and it well could end up being that you start to see more and more progress as you go, and surely even in the first full cycle it might seem that it is taking a while to get to a point of really being able to measure your progress.. but yeah, after several cycles, it might start to become more and more clear that you are getting closer and closer to reaching your BTC accumulation goals... so then the ideas about overaccumulation start to make more sense when you are applying them to your own circumstances rather than talking about them in the abstract in regards to so far into the future that you cannot even be sure about how your progress of accumulating bitcoin might advance during that time.