Quote from: nikola22 on June 15, 2025, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on June 12, 2025, 07:41:16 PM

So, governments, institutions and even individuals may well start out considering that they will just accumulate 1% or some modest amount in their budget (investment portfolio allocation), and then they continue to find more and more and more reasons to increase their cornz allocation and it becomes a bit of an unstoppable snowballing of the accumulation of bitcoin.

I suppose, you think that we are at the early stage of bitcoin accumulation by governments and institutions? as I remember Microstrategy bought bitcoin for the first time in august 2020 and for several years there weren't many companies willing to repeat this step. who knows, may be this time also interest for bitcoin will decrease after some kind of global event.

For sure, this is a bit of an evolving situation since there are some elements in which bitcoiners are getting their dreams to come true with the level of attention towards bitcoin and so many governments, institutions and even status quo rich folks seem to be changing some of their tunes around bitcoin, including acting like they like bitcoin, at least for the purpose of their own hoarding of it, yet I doubt that they are excited about the various individual sound money and individual financial freedom aspects of bitcoin, which seems to be part of where bitcoin bringing power to the people, so I am not sure which parts they are wanting to bring in while excluding other parts, and surely there is a bit of a likely fine dance going on that continues to have a lot of uncertainties, including the various ways that aspects of the new areas of bitcoin adoption are likely to experience some blowing ups.

I am not claiming to know how it is all going to play out, even though each person is likely going to be better off to make sure that he is continuing to stack bitcoin rather than ignoring bitcoin and/or refusing to get off of zero, which happens to be the position and/or posture of around 99% of the world's population. They will likely end up coming in at a higher price..and there is ONLY so much any of us as individuals can do in order to help individuals to help themselves, even if some of us (as individuals who already own some bitcoin) are likely going to prosper from the extent that governments, institutions and/or status quo rich are pumping our bags to the extent that we have accumulated bitcoin rather than sitting on our hands in the past years (to the extent we have known about bitcoin for a while, and even you nikola22 may well have had some time to accumulate some bitcoin already since you have a mid-2017 forum registration date.

Quote from: nikola22 on June 15, 2025, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on June 12, 2025, 07:41:16 PM

We likely can logically deduce that many countries, institutions and/or individuals are going to end up suffering some kind of bitcoin rug pull, yet at the same time, they also may be screwing their own little selfies in some of their own cashflow management practices... and yeah, some of the countries will be printing their fiat to buy bitcoin and others may well not be advantaged by bitcoin in terms of their own inabilities to spend within their means, so they will continue to abuse debt like they have historically done, and bitcoin may not end up advantaging them if they don't figure out how to manage their budgets even within a state actor or even large corporation kind of way, and it seems that bitcoin will still reward the prudent rather than the reckless. .... including recognizing and/or appreciating the power of holding your own keys (to at least a decently large proportion of your stash), yet we are still witnessing how these matters are going to play out in the coming years as larger and larger players are coming to bitcoin, yet some of the same fundamentals about bitcoin still apply to them, even if some of the larger entities have been so spoiled by fiat and their status in the fiat debt system, that they might not recognize the power of sound money and/or following prudent cashflow management practices.

you are right, countries can print fiat to buy bitcoin and also can issue bonds to buy it. but now many countries are still afraid of making such steps. another limiting factor is the presence of conservatives in government bodies. they prefer gold and traditional assets so they don't see any value in bitcoin and consider it as very volatile speculative asset. although many people have recently seen how volatile can be the stock market.

As individuals, it is unclear how much we are advantaged to be figuring out the extent to which governments, institutions and/or status quo rich are getting into bitcoin or playing with various financial tools or fucking around with gold, and in some sense, we may well be happy in regards to the extent that many of them have plans and practices that are all over the place and potentially contradictory and maybe even mixing up bitcoin and shitcoins or trying to figure out the extent to which "stable coins" are good for them or not and/or their likely ongoing desires to control individuals as much as they can through whatever attempts at regulatory friendliness and/or hostilities that they might figure out to explore and/or to deploy, and as individuals hopefully we are not too much distracted by the same nonsense, lack of direction and/or all over the place strategies that we might see from states, institutions and/or status quo rich folks.. We should be figuring out how to devise plans and to execute strategies to protect ourselves and our bitcoin, even if we might have some bitcoin held by third parties, we may well likely realize that we should be aiming towards maintaining much of our BTC stash privately and protecting ourselves as much as we can, which may also involve ongoing attempts at learning, too..

Quote from: nikola22 on June 15, 2025, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on June 12, 2025, 07:41:16 PM

That seems to be pointing out the level of early that we continue to be, and surely some sovereigns and/or quasi-governmental bodies might find it more convenient to get exposure through ETFs, and others might consider some form of self-custody or ways to have strong checks on their custodians (private custodial arrangements), so the solutions in regards to how they hold their bitcoin might not be clear, and even Bhutan does not seem to be completely transparent regarding their bitcoin holdings. and they seem to have a lot, relative to their size (GDP, budget and population).

as for me exposure through ETFs is the sign of early stage of adoption by corporations/governments/funds. I think over some time they will prefer some form of self-custody or using custodians of institutional grade with all the related services like full insurance.

A decent number of governments, institutions and even individuals who have retirement plans, they might have trouble employing self custody rather than using various forums of 3rd party custody, and sure even some regular folks may well need to weigh the extent to which they want to be careful about their third party custody arrangements and to also make sure that they hold bitcoin in self-custody too.. so in some senses, individuals are likely going to be better off to be able to be flexible and to choose to keep at least decent portions of the BTC holdings in self-custody, even though they could be torn about the prospect of having tax advantaged accounts (and employer matching) through retirement plans that might have access to ETFs.. but then there can be scariness and even extra learning to do with the more powerful option of holding your own keys.

Quote from: nikola22 on June 15, 2025, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on June 12, 2025, 07:41:16 PM

You are expressing a truth that seems to apply whether you are a government, institution or individual. Those with greater discretionary income have more options to buy bitcoin and even more options to screw things up but still end up accumulating more bitcoin than those with smaller levels of discretionary income..... yet at the same time, it seems to me that a decent number of governments, institutions and individuals are going to get ahead of the similarly-situated (or better off) status quo governments, institutions and individuals based on their level of aggressiveness in accumulating bitcoin within their means and without screwing things up, so they may well be way smaller and with fewer resources, yet bitcoin may well end up contribute towards their relative advancement in the pack of relative comparisons.

of course, those who starts bitcoin accumulation earlier will have chances to close the wealth gap with wealthy countries but their possibilities are still too limited. and I think in many countries/governments there is sufficient number of opponents of aggressive bitcoin accumulation.

Anyone living in countries with hostility towards bitcoin holders still have to figure out how to protect themselves, and the government is not necessarily helping them to be able to make the right choices if they are restricted from being able to accumulate and even transact in bitcoin, and I am not going to claim to understand all of the various obstacles that individuals are going to face to be able to make sure that they are able to hold bitcoin without overly suffering risks of getting locked out of their coins or otherwise rug pulled by their government or some supposedly credible 3rd party custodian. Rug pulling can happen in rich and poor countries.

Quote from: nikola22 on June 15, 2025, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on June 12, 2025, 07:41:16 PM

As many of us likely realize, there can be a bit of a mal-incentive for countries and local governments to be accumulating bitcoin (and/or shitcoins) through confiscation.... Many of the laws around confiscation can be unjust, yet it is also unjust for countries to print money and steal from the population by diluting the currency, even though many countries do engage in printing and currency dilution.

I completely agree and there won't be any trust in such governments and countries who unjustly confiscate assets. BTC holders will leave such countries and move to places where the laws are fair and investors are protected. as for printing money, it's an old problem for many countries and that's why bitcoin is getting more and more popular.

The mobility of people in various countries is not always clear, and some folks might be stuck in countries with various unjust laws.