Yeah, it's true that some folks wouldn't have a hard time rattling off their budget, emergency fund and other areas of their finances, but that doesn't mean everyone can, because I'd bet that a lot of people wouldn't have a single clue as many folks out there are only trying pretty hard just to make it to the next paycheck without having to overdraft.
I am painting the scenario of an hour or two discussion, but yeah, they might have to access some of their documents and maybe they might need help to write them all out, while at the same time, as long as they know basic math and common sense, I am presuming that most of them (like 80%, should be able calculate out if they have discretionary income and/or more income than expenses), and yeah, maybe they cannot do it without some coaxing, but they surely are capable of going through those kinds of basic maths and common sense processing of logic.. which means that that they are capable of learning and capable of figuring out whether they have $100, $10 or some other amount of discretionary income within this particular week). It is like an ability of someone who is feeling a craving to smoke some cigarettes or they have a friend that would like cigarettes as a gift, and within a short period of time, they can figure out the extent to which they have $10 to buy the cigarettes or not..... just meaning that the cigarettes are not a necessary expense but an extra optional expense.
Yeah, figuring out whether one have discretionary income isn't actually rocket science, and you're not also wrong for pointing out that with a little bit of guidance and of course some basic maths skills, figuring out one's discretionary income shouldn't be much of a big deal. If someone can be able to calculate whether they can actually afford a pack of cigarettes or not, then they can pretty much figure out their discretionary income, it's just simple arithmetic and common sense, even if some folks are actually retards, and needs others to help them calculate their expenses every single time, it still doesn't change the fact that anyone can actually do it.
I did a quickie search on google, and
there was an article that estimates that around 2.6% of the population has an IQ of less than 75, which constitutes the score for mental retardation.. and surely even some folks who are mentally retarded are still functional.. but yeah, maybe something like 2.6% of the population might be overly challenged in terms of figuring out how to sufficiently manage their finances and/or not having enough common sense to be responsible to figure out how to invest into something like bitcoin... .or maybe those folks with low intelligence might need special training to be able to get to a point where they might be able to responsibly invest in something like bitcoin.
In other words, I am presuming 0% or more of the people to be able to figure out whether or not they have discretionary income and to have abilities to learn how to invest and/or engage in proper cashflow management..
Sure, it may take some time for some of them to practice systems to improve their abilities.. but from my presumption they already have enough basics to be able to invest and to manage their income.. and/or to figure out if they have discretionary income. Sure there may be decently large percentages of the population inclined to gamble and in bad practices in regards to controlling their emotions, but I still presume they can be treated like adults and able to learn right from the start and get started investing in bitcoin as long as they can figure out if they have discretionary income or not..
Another thing is that some folks might conclude that they do not have discretionary income, yet there still could be ways that they could increase their income and/or cut their expenses in order to end up with discretionary income, which yes, having discretionary income remains the real main requirement in order to be able to invest in bitcoin... and yeah, if we also suggest that anyone investing in bitcoin has to figure a 4-10 year or longer ability to invest into bitcoin, there are likely a lot of folks who don't know their future income that far in advance, but I am also going to presume that an overwhelming majority of folks are intellectually capable of figuring out whether or not they have reasonable good chances for future income or not in order to qualify or not for being able to invest into bitcoin.. and sure, there are some folks are in such poverty that they may well not be able to invest into bitcoin and they do not have to have a steady job but they do have to have some semblance of discretionary income and a 4-10 year or longer timeline for any time that they chose to buy bitcoin, whether it is $10 per week or $10 per month or whatever amount they are able to figure out that they have for such investing into bitcoin purposes.
As long as folks can learn to prioritize needs over wants, and of course also have a clear picture of our finances, then learning to track one's expenses and income, and of course making more informed decisions about their finances should be a piece of cake.
I am not proclaiming that any of these matters are easy, even if the skills are within the abilities of an overwhelming majority of folks.. something like 97%-ish.. .. yet at the same time, there may be a lot of folks with bad habits that they likely woudl need to learn how to develop and follow better practices but I am personally presuming that they can get started investing into bitcoin and learn as they go...
And, yes, those folks who are so damned poor that they are ONLY able to garner $10 per month once in a while, then yeah maybe they are not in a very good place to be investing into bitcoin without figuring out ways to increase their discretionary income.. yet they still might be helped by being able to invest in bitcoin, even if the amounts are small and they are infrequent...
Bitcoin is likely one of the best places to invest (if not the best) even though surely folks who do not have discretionary income and cannot figure out ways to get discretionary income are not going to be able to directly advantage themselves with bitcoin and any benefits that they receive may well end up being indirect rather than direct... and sure sometimes it can be difficult for some folks to actually be able to directly invest into bitcoin because they do not have discretionary income and they cannot figure out ways to accomplish such...so they may well only be indirectly advantaged by bitcoin rather than directly advantaging by it.
And with a little bit of support, folks shouldn't also have a problem developing their skills and of course confidence to effectively manage their finances.
Now, you seem to be coming around to arguing the point that I was attempting to make originally.
And it's important to note that this is really not about being a financial expert or having some sort of degree in economics, It's more about knowing how/when to add and subtract and most importantly, knowing how to make better decisions when it comes to income allocation.
You are not going to get disagreement from me.. and I think that was the point that I attempting to make regarding: 1) assuming guys have sufficiently enough basic skills to get started investing into bitcoin right away as long as they figure out that they have a discretionary funds, 2) basic skills can be honed through ongoing practice and ongoingly going over the various basic skills, plotting things out and working with the combination of facts, practice and logic, 3) there is some space for common sense and emotional maturity, yet those common sense and emotional skills can be honed and built upon too.. and 4) as the various basic skills are practiced and more learning takes place, tweaking of the practices and systems can continued to be made and the whole process is like a snowballing effect that likely becomes more and more individually tailored with the ongoing practice and reinforcing the better ideas and practices while weeding out the worse ideas and bad practices.
Another side note is that surely I recognize that there are people with varying levels of intelligence, lack of experience, bad role models and etc, yet even some of the folks who some of us might consider to be really dumb in terms of their learning, their life experience and their ways of expressing themselves will likely know some things that we don't know. . so in some sense, there are possibilities to learn from almost anyone even if we might be on a higher level in some areas, and at the same time as our skills and experiences get higher we might no longer be wanting to spend a bunch of time in order to potentially learn some things from people who are going through a process that we have already been through several times or even that our areas of interest do not necessarily match.. so sure, there may well be people who have some areas of experiences, knowledge and/or ways of expressing themselves that we don't know and/or we are not talented in that direction, so we still have to both figure out how to use our own time and also the ways that we might engage in critical thinking in terms of how we might be working out problems, learning more information and putting our knowledge into practice.. and it is quite likely that with the passage of time and even changes in the world, we continue to make mistakes and grow too.
I believe it's also possible for folks to achieve all these on their own, when given the right tools or maybe by also getting a little support from others,
Of course some folks are more self-directed than others, and some folks need various kinds of interactions with others in the way that they learn.
either ways, it's more than possible for folks to learn to do this and of course, make progress as they advance towards achieving their financial goals.
Agreed.
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I agree with you that most people probably suck quite a bit when it comes to their own cashflow management, and maybe even more than 50% of people are not very good at cashflow management, yet you don't need to be good at cashflow management in order to get started buying bitcoin. All you need is to figure out if you have discretionary income or not... which I am proclaiming around 80% of people are capable of figuring that out, and if they cannot figure it out or they calculate that they do not have discretionary income, then they cannot start buying bitcoin until they figure out that they do have discretionary income/funds.
It is likely 80% of people can learn how to manage their cashflows based on common sense, math skills and/or their ability to learn and prioritize within their own interests. Sure a lot of folks don't do it, but I am still presuming they are capable even if they have other priorities...and an overwhelming majority.. perhaps 99% or more (based on our already existing low levels of bitcoin adoption) do not prioritize bitcoin investing, which is another reason to show why we are so early in bitcoin, since there are quite great opportunities for anyone recognizing and acting upon the asymmetric status of the information about bitcoin.
We likely can agree to disagree in regards to our presumption of the basic knowledge of normies and/or their ability to learn cashflow management and bitcoin investing within their discretionary income.
Yeah, inasmuch as cashflow management isn't everyone's strong suit, I believe you're right about individuals not needing to be a pro at it before they can get started with Bitcoin. As long as they can be able to figure out their discretionary income, then they probably have a great starting point. I also share in your view that 80% of people is a reasonable number, and can probably manage their finances with basic maths and common sense.
It's also quite agreeable that there are a lot of folks out there who might not prioritize Bitcoin investing, but for those who actually does, it becomes a pretty great opportunity for them because they're the ones who can actually recognize Bitcoin's true potential. And just like you pointed out, Bitcoin is still relatively a new technology and we are also early in the adoption circle, and there is a lot of room for growth and more education and discoveries in the long.
I'd also like to believe that it's not just about managing one's cash flow but also about understanding the basics of investing and risk management, and even if I agree that these skills could be learned, improved and even perfected as they advance and of course, with the proper guidance and resources, I believe it's important that folks should at least have a clue that they'll be needing some of these things and as well as to know that it's also quite essential to every investor.
If I go up to each person that I meet, and I even make it my daily purpose to advise them (and tell them) to get the fuck started right away and to buy some bitcoin, and maybe even i individually tailor the matter to wherever I am in order to point them out to som e sources to buy bitcoin whether exchanges or I help them to set up a wallet to be able to transact with me directly to get their first bitcoin..,,. They still have responsibilities to figure out their various basics including figuring out if they have discretionary income and other cashflow management matters. Some folks are already quite organized and they could get started and even develop a DCA plan within hours of my conversation with them. Others might need to spend a few days and others might have to spend a few weeks getting their head around matters and even making some space in their schedule so that they can focus on thinking about the matter. There are also a decent number of people who are merely just ongoingly carrying out their daily tasks and they have no room in their schedule to make some space to be able to both reflect on new ideas and maybe take some preliminary efforts to look into their finances better and/or look into bitcoin, and sure comparing bitcoin to other possible places to put money is only one of the
9 individual factors that should at least be considered, perhaps only preliminarily but still at least there may need to be some ability to assess the 9 individual factors, including that if a person is really busy for the coming days and/or weeks with other activities and/or thoughts, they might have to schedule some time, even if it is merely a few hours to go over their 9 individual factors in order to potentially figure out if they have discretionary funds or not and perhaps other matters related to their 9 individual factors..
Each person has responsibility, not me.. I tell them to get the fuck started, and they have to figure out the details and act upon my suggestion to actually do what I suggest or not to...and it is not any of my responsibility if they fuck things up and/or if they misunderstand what I meant by getting the fuck started and they buy shitcoins rather than bitcoin... that is on them, not me.... even though I told them to get the fuck started and they misunderstood what I meant by that and they did not do enough due diligence to figure it out or ask questions and yeah maybe by the time they think about what I said, they have no way to contact me to ask follow up questions, so they have to find their own proper resources and perhaps engage in some critical thinking to separate the good information from the not so good information.
Now if the person happens to be retarded, such as part of the 2.6% of folks who fall into that category, or maybe they are still very young and they are not mature enough to understand my message and/or to act responsibly, so hopefully I can recognize my audience enough if I am talking with them in person.. and if they are reading on line or watching a video of me (meaning there is no actual interaction), then hopefully in some way they are able to screen themselves out in terms or their not being able to act on such information based on their own impairments.
Another thing I'd also like to add to this is that, it's really not about the individual's current knowledge or skill, but also pretty much about education and of course accessibility. I believe if more people are able to see that Bitcoin is more accessible and also that educational resources are also widespread, they'd be more enthusiastic to get involved because learning to manage their finances and investment wouldnt have to be much of a big deal.
It would seem that the basics of finances and cashflow management would have a certain level of common appeal for all people to want to know more and more and more about those kinds of topics... since it seems that if any of us can figure out some of the basic skills of living within our means and then investing from our discretionary income and then maybe various ways to potentially use debt and other financial instruments (more advance skills), then we are likely to empower ourselves more and more and more with the mere management and reflection on our own cashflows and the setting aside of some of our funds into bitcoin as long as we can make sure we have discretionary funds.
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Every country has poor people and some of these poor people still make a way to invest in bitcoin so not having a stable source of income shouldn't be an excuse of not getting started with your bitcoin investment besides what is needed to start investing in bitcoin is your
discretionary income and not having a stable source of income, those who are desperate to make quick money in bitcoin are not investor but trader because as an investor your major priority will be to accumulate more Bitcoin and hodl for a very long time with the range of 4-10 and more.
I have been thinking about maybe starting to distinguish between discretionary income and discretionary funds, and surely it is way better to have discretionary income rather than discretionary funds, since having an income implies an ongoing stream of money coming in, yet each time a person buys bitcoin, there is not a need for an income, but instead only a need for funds to be able to invest in bitcoin... and yeah, there is a bonus if each of us is able to figure out various future cashflows or even have some strong sense of our future cash flow, yet in order to buy bitcoin, as a minimum, we only need discretionary funds, not discretionary income.. .. but yeah, of course, any of us could end up screwing matters up if we buy bitcoin and we think that we are going to be able to hold it for 4-10 years and longer, but then for some reason we are not able to get enough income to cover our future expenses... since of course, if we are living in this world, then every single month (and day) that we are alive, we are likely to have a variety of expenses, especially the basics of food and shelter, and surely in some of our cases, we might have someone else covering our food and shelter expenses..
yet whatever is our arrangement, we might consider how that arrangement is going in terms of our ability to have those expenses covered and also if we might have discretionary funds currently available and the extent to which we might have future income (and is that future income necessary to cover our expenses and/or to give us an ability to expect to be able to buy bitcoin in the future).. There is one level of being able to continue to buy bitcoin into the future and it is a different level to merely hang onto the bitcoin that we had already bought, and surely any person continuing to invest in bitcoin or to hold it in accordance with a 4-10 year or longer plan will likely have to think through these matters or to maybe plan some of these matters with the passage of time.
Every country has poor people and some of these poor people still make a way to invest in bitcoin so not having a stable source of income shouldn't be an excuse of not getting started with your bitcoin investment besides what is needed to start investing in bitcoin is your discretionary income and not having a stable source of income, those who are desperate to make quick money in bitcoin are not investor but trader because as an investor your major priority will be to accumulate more Bitcoin and hodl for a very long time with the range of 4-10 and more.
Having an unstable source of income isn't just a good excuse not to get started with Bitcoin but also a major drawback. And you say that what is needed is a discretionary income and not a stable source of income, so I wanna know how possible it is to have a discretionary income when your income isn't stable?
Of course some guys are in more solid income situations as compared with others... but there is not a need for an income in order to buy bitcoin, there is ONLY a need for funds (discretionary funds), and of course, if someone mischaracterizes his funds to consider them to be discretionary when they are not, then he ends up trading rather than investing because he would not be able to cover his future expenses if he does not have (or is able to get) future income to cover his expenses... but the fact that he might fuck up his future does not mean that he is not able to invest into bitcoin based on what he currently has and his expectations that he will have enough future cashflows to cover his expenses.
You get your discretionary income from your initial income so if your income isn't stable, then that automatically means that your discretionary income will also be unstable and so will your accumulation and this is Infact very bad for your investment.
Ever time you buy bitcoin, there should be an expectation to be able to hold it 4-10 years or longer, otherwise you are trading rather than investing.
Having a stable income source is Infact one major tool you need to get started with Bitcoin accumulation,
You don't need income to get started.. ONLY funds... discretionary funds.. meaning that the funds are after expenses have been taken care of.. and sure there likely is a need for an expectation that the funds that are used to buy bitcoin is not going to be needed for 4-10 years or longer.
except you don't have intentions to engage in consistent accumulation using the DCA strategy,
You are describing levels.
Of course one thing is buying bitcoin
The second thing is holding the bitcoin for 4-10 years or more.. which implies not selling it during that period.. (or at least planning and/or realistically hoping for such an outcome)
The next level is continuing to buy bitcoin through the next 4-10 years or longer.. so of course, if we have high expectations that our income is going to continue to be higher than our expenses in the future, then we would expect to continue to buy bitcoin in the future... Yet we do not need to continue to buy bitcoin in the future in order to hold onto the bitcoin that we already bought..
which comes highly recommended for newbies who are hoping to get started with Bitcoin investment.
You are saying having an income is highly recommended for newbies?
I doubt that. The main thing that is needed to get started is figuring out if the newbie has discretionary funds or not.. .
If the newbie has discretionary funds, such newbie can get started buying bitcoin, whether that is buying $10 or some other amount...
Let me give an example that is similar to one that I already attempted to make in this thread. If a newbie hears about bitcoin and he has $10 in his pocket and he was considering buying cigarettes with that $10 that he has in his pocket.. but then after he hears about bitcoin and he starts to think about the possibility of buying bitcoin, he might think that he does not have money to buy bitcoin, but he does have $10 in his pocket that he was going to use to buy cigarettes.. He may well already that cigarettes are a consumption good that really are optional, and so might start to speculate about the situation that he is in and consider that he could buy bitcoin with that $10 that he has in his pocket instead of buying the $10 worth of cigarettes, and of course from his perspective, if were to choose to buy bitcoin instead of the cigarettes, then he would not be able to buy the $10 worth of cigarettes... and he may well realize that at the pace that he tends to consume cigarettes, he figures that he would not be able to smoke cigarettes for 2 weeks if he were to use the $10 to buy bitcoin rather than the $10 worth of cigarettes since it usually takes him about 2 weeks to consume $10 worth of cigarettes.. so if he buys bitcoin he is not going to be able to smoke cigarettes for 2 weeks.. So he has that decision in front of him and the $10 is serving as discretionary funds that he right now has in his pocket and he can decide how to use such discretionary funds right now as he has it available to him and that $10 does not depend on future income since he has a plan to spend it either way and whether he should buy $10 worth of cigarettes with it or to use the $10 to buy bitcoin is a choice that he currently has and he does not highly recommendedly need any future income in order to make that choice that he already knows has a trade-off of no cigarettes for 2 weeks if he chooses to use that $10 in his pocket to buy bitcoin instead of the cigarettes that he was intending on buying.
I'm not saying anyone without a stable income source can't invest in Bitcoin, I'm saying that it's appropriate to have a stable income source so that it'll be easier for you to discover and know your discretionary income and furthermore, how much you wish to invest consistently from your discretionary income.
Sure. Your future income could well be a factor of your ability to buy bitcoin in the future and your future income could also be a factor in regards to whether your present funds are discretionary or not.,and so if you misjudge your future income, you could end up using present funds to buy bitcoin when those funds were going to be needed in the future to cover expenses.. so yeah, there is some need to get it right.. but at the same time, a person does not need to have a source of future income or even assurance of future income in order to come to the conclusion that they are able to buy bitcoin today based on their assessment of their discretionary funds status.. and yeah, if they mess it up, then they are going to have to live with the consequences.
By the way, does any of us believe that in order to invest into bitcoin with a investment timeline of at least 4 years, then therefore we have to make sure that we have some kind of guarantee that we either have enough money to cover our expenses for 4 years or some high level of assurance that we are going to have enough income in the coming 4 years to cover all of our expenses? Personally, I doubt we need to shore up our income for 4 years in order to develop an investment intention of investing into bitcoin for at least 4 years and surely for many folks (especially newbies who have no other investments) we come into bitcoin with an intention of investing more than 10 years, and surely there are some newbies who at the beginning of their bitcoin investment, they expect that they are going to be investing into bitcoin for 20 years or more... but they also might not even have a steady source of income (or maybe they do not have any income) when they first start investing into bitcoin.
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To some extent I think being poor is a decision people do take because no one has an excuse to be poor in life and if I'm not mistaking most of the people we see or call wealthy and rich today are people who pass through worst situations but decided not to see poor as an option and today they are rich and if they tell's you their stories, you can shed tears.
Additionally, no matter how strong a situation is one can still overcome if only they are determined and refused to see poverty as an option and as a matter of fact challenges are what defines people, if one can not overcome challenge they will remain a minor to the challenge but once someone overcomes the challenge, successful is already by the corner waiting and that challenge will be like nothing to them anymore.
I will admit that there may be many times that poor people could do more to get themselves out of their own bad situation, yet it seems a bit much to proclaim that being poor is an option... even though surely sometimes it can be more difficult to get out of a bad situation when some bad choices might have had been made at various points along the way.
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there's a phrase that says you must learn to crawl before you walk, this phrase applies in many aspects of our lives. And in Bitcoin it simply means you have to pass through different stages especially in accumulation before you get to where your aiming for.
many investors sub-consciously sees Bitcoin as a means to double up financially and thus seem to invest heavily to make huge profits within their certain durability. And when the market experiences a little turbulence they panic.
Investing your all into Bitcoin is the most unencouragable thing to do as an investor trying to accumulate Bitcoin.
You are likely correct Gooner0 in that there are likely a decent number of folks who come to recognize and appreciate bitcoin as a good place to put value and even to be aggressive in regards to their accumulation of bitcoin, but then they end up making the mistake of overdoing it... They over invest and they mistakenly cross over from the o.k. approach of being aggressive and they end up being overaggressive in their investment.. which may well be that they were not managing their cashflow well.. or even putting themselves in a position that they were too emotionally attached to bitcoin's performance as going up and they are not able to tolerate the downside that ends up happening from time to time.
Well arrange @OP, but where some people get it wrong most times is when they have a reckless spending habits, an act of uncontrollable spending habit, and with such habits it becomes difficult to keep emergency funds or even accumulate Bitcoin, such people continue to give themselves false hope that they will have to settle all their needs first before they can start saving or investing but they don't realize that time doesn't wait for anyone.
So what I will like to add is that, anyone that discover that they have the reckless spending habit should fix it first and start making a budget spending because if they don't, they will find it difficult to follow all this steps you have put together and they will continue to procrastinate investing while time is going. Let them fix their spending habit and start to accumulate with any small amount, the money must not be big first before you can invest.
I agree with some aspects of your overall point Dr.Bitcoin_Strange, even though I think that you could maybe frame the matter a bit more clearly.. since there are some levels of messed up finances and even messed up character flaws (behaviors) that may well be so extreme that they have to be sorted out just for a guy to figure out the extent that he actually has discretionary income and the extent to which he is able to make sure that he is not investing into bitcoin beyond his discretionary income.
So if finances and/or psychology are so messed up that the discretionary income cannot be figured out or the guy cannot have enough confidence to be able to control his own behaviors, then he may well have to get that shit sorted out before getting started with investing into bitcoin.
Yet, at the same time, there can be a lot of advantages in regards to investing into bitcoin in order to help a guy focus on recognizing the importance of spending within his discretionary income and also getting his finances and/or psychology into a better state.. and sometimes having solid goals can actually help to make better some of the negative psychological issues.
Your example highlights that we cannot expect that guys come to bitcoin with similar levels of ease in order to figure out their finances, since there are frequently going to be situations in which guys have been spending badly and/or getting in debt or even having familial relations that contribute to complex finances, such as expenses and/or even irregularities of income... so sometimes it could take a bit of sorting out to figure out cashflows and then maybe to figure out ways that income is assuredly higher than expenses and guys are not putting themselves into situations that even cause more stress due to some of the earlier bad management of finances and/or even not sufficiently understanding some financial repercussions of some of the earlier decisions... in terms of whether the math adds up in regards to income versus expenses.
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Many new investors may not have a steady source of income when they start investing, so they are eligible to accumulation Bitcoin because they have a source of discretionary income. By not having a steady source of income, I mean that they do not have a reliable job and their job could be lost at any time. For example, someone who works part-time and may be laid off at any time, but has a discretionary income of $50 at the end of the week, can be confident in accumulation Bitcoin. He should refrain from getting discouraged because as a result of his concentration and dedication, he may get a better job in the future and he will be interested in more Bitcoin. The habit of accumulation Bitcoin through small amounts of discretionary income can lead to a large Bitcoin holding for that investor in the long run. Not having a steady source of income should not be a barrier to Bitcoin. If he has a minimum source of discretionary income he can start with any amount and staying long term.
I agree with your points Olatundespo, including that some guys might find themselves struggling on an ongoing basis and maybe they had been struggling for years with ongoing uncertainties about their present and/or future income.
Investing into bitcoin might also incentivize them to try to figure out their situation by going through some assessments regarding the various ways that they might have to attempt to increase their discretionary income by increasing their income and/or cutting their costs, and in some ways they might come to the realization that in order to increase their income, they might need to spend some money or get some training, and surely if they are younger they might have more options for career changes.. .and I am not even going to proclaim that the decisions are easy, even though sometimes we might need to revisit some of our earlier choices including education, training and/or even sometimes some business ventures that we might enter into or social networking that might be necessary to be able to get into higher income possibilities. .and I had even mentioned that sometimes there can be opportunities to get into higher paying jobs, but there may be needs to go through low paying jobs and/or internships or other kinds of free or low paying work in order to network sufficiently or even to build up experiences in such ways to be perceived as being qualified for some of the higher paying work.