Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 01:43:06 AM

Quote from: As-Soon-As on June 30, 2025, 04:34:40 AM

MSTR's investment has placed them at the top of the historical Bitcoin companies in the world today.

I'm guessing you're relatively young, probably mid-20s or younger (I could be wrong, yes) because those words I put in bold just do not compute. What in the world constitutes a corporation being historical with respect to bitcoin? Compared to gold, cash, bonds, Berkshire Hathaway stock, and even my grandmother bitcoin is still a baby.

Also....is MSTR actually a "bitcoin company" or does it still contain remnants of its original business (whatever the fuck that was, software? Nobody knows or even cares anymore). I'm so done cheering on Michael Saylor. Any CEO of a company who's buying and stockpiling an asset with corporate funds and then hyping that asset up from the mountain tops is acting unethically. If another CEO happened to do that with a stock or something else, I bet the SEC might have a problem with it.

Quote from: As-Soon-As on June 30, 2025, 04:34:40 AM

And they have gained recognition as a historical company in the world as a result of their aggressive purchase of Bitcoin.

Did you know Evel Knievel gained enormous recognition by performing so many motorcycle stunts that he broke nearly every bone in his body? Or that Brandon Vedas made his internet name known by overdosing on drugs while chatting about it on IRC?
My point is, what's your point?

Gosh. You are seeming to continue to stay emotional about MSTR/Saylor and you come off as salty and bitter, The Sceptical Chymist (TSC).

Surely, on a personal level, I am starting to get a bit bothered by some of Strategy's/Saylor's tactics of buying up so much bitcoin using other people's money, so from my point of view, there is a bit of unfairness in the whole matter of their getting so much bitcoin.. and doing it so smartly and even contributing towards copy-cats to do the same thing of accumulating and hoarding bitcoin, which is likely ongoingly driving up the BTC price and causing more and more diffiuclties for the BTC price to go down, yet at the same time, it becomes a bit difficult to complain about Saylor/Strategy when they have been largely telling us (and everyone that they can) what they were going to do prior to doing it, which surely gives others (whether individuals, institutions and/or or governments) the abilities to attempt to front run them (as well as possible) or to at least NOT fight what they are doing or go against it.

Yet for sure, there are folks (and have been folks) doing the exact opposite and even ongoingly complaining about Saylor/MSTR instead of figuring out that it is better to just accumulate bitcoin rather than complaining about MSTR/Saylor and the various BTC accumulating copy cats.

Hopefully that you TSC are at least accumulating BTC while complaining (and ongoingly whining) about MSTR rather than just complaining about them.. but yeah, of course, that is on you... You can do whatever you like.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

Quote from: Ambatman on July 01, 2025, 07:12:03 AM

Strategy has officially qualified For Consideration for S&P 500 inclusion in September.

That means nothing. Actually, worse than nothing because swapping out underperforming companies for high-flyers is a way to keep the stock market looking healthy, perhaps healthier than the economy itself. I don't know who MSTR is going to replace since I have not looked into it, but didn't ya kind of wonder why a big index would want that particular company included in the index's data all of a sudden?

To me, it does not seem that the administrators of the S&P 500 are making any decisions, since companies either fit the criteria or they don't and then if MSTR gets in, then they have passed above the threshold and perhaps passed up several companies that might be at the bottom of the criteria.. ado yeah, if they have a specific number of companies (500 or whatever) then some companies are moving in and others are moving out... and perhaps on the margins, companies 497, 498, 499, 500, 501, 502 do not look very different from one another in terms of their bieng measured in terms of the criteria.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

All of that shit is manipulated as much as it can be. The S&P 500 is not a country club; it's supposed to be a barometer of the market (I have to suppress a giggle) and many small investors buy index funds, as do 401k plans, and god knows who all else.

Of course, there are reasonably valid arguments that the various uses of index funds and incorporated DCA strategies surely does end up propping up companies at the top and keeping them at the top... but how much can be done about the systems that are in place?

Don't get me wrong. I am not against complaining and/or criticizing to the extent any of it matters... in terms of how any of us might choose to live our lives and making our various allocation choices, to the extent that we have options to make choices that might make material differences in our lives, and surely there are a lot of longer time bitcoiners who have figured out how to allocate decent portions of their time, energies and value into bitcoin and who have done quite will with such bitcoin-related allocations.

Of course, I am not much of a fan of allocating into something like MSTR rather than holding bitcoin directly, even though surely I can see some ways that guys might find some allocation into MSR to be potentially helpful to their own personal situations, including that some individuals might have funds that need to have custodians and they might haver MSTR as one of their options.. and surely institutions and/or governments might find it much easier to get some allocation to MSTR rather than trying to hold bitcoin directly.. so they still get bitcoin price exposure, even if they do not end up owning the bitcoin directly.... and even some of them will learn more about bitcoin based on their having had first started to get exposure to bitcoin prices (blah blah blah) based on owning MSTR or some of MSTR's other bitcoin-related prodcucts...

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

Better hope Saylor knows how to keep the line going up for a lot of folks' sake.

Some folks are degenerate gamblers, and others are already used to ideas of up and down volatility - which is related to bitcoin price changes rather than exclusively regarding Saylor pumpings or coming up with newly creative bitcoin (or MSTR) derivative products.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

Me? I don't have faith in that feat, his proselytizing, his sucking up to politicians or his business model of get $-->buy BTC, make an announcement.

Of course, Saylor has been in the bitcoin scene for nearly 5 years, so certain aspects of his personality, his tactics and/or even some of the changing tactics (or talking about proof of reserves is not important.. but instead POR is not a good idea).. and so yeah, there are aspects of Saylor/MSTR and/or their tactics that can start to become irritating.... even his seeming to start to receive god like receptions can be a bit grating on some bitcoiners.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

If bitcoin does happen to keep rising for a long time, people are going to think he was prescient--but nobody is.

Of course, none of us, not even Saylor, can know various aspects of bitcoin's short-to-medium term prices, yet Saylor does not even have outrageous predictions.. so I hardly see any reason to get so worked up about what he is saying.,,. even though he tends to make a lot of good points and come up with a lot of good frameworks, yet so many of us likely realize that a decent amount of bitcoin's value also comes from both interacting and/or transacting with bitcoin or having the ability to transact with bitcoin .. so there could be some concerns that Saylor and his copy cats are attacking aspects of bitcoin's transactability and/or even the feasibility to transact in bitcoin.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

And let's see, there are a lot of small coffee shops that mimic Starbucks; anyone think it's possible to just imitate MSTR's current business plan of buying and holding bitcoin,

Of course Saylor/MSTR has a lot of advantages over the mimickers and/or the MSTR/Saylor wannabes.. I am going to have to agree with you on this point, even though I don't really like agreeing with such a seemingly whiner like you some times seem to play such whining part so well. hahahahaha

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

maybe out of a downtown office building in a small US city? The more I think about all of this, the more bizarre and inverted the world appears.

You seem to sometimes overly think these matters too.. which sometimes causes me to speculate that you failing/refusing to really "get bitcoin" and/or to make sure that you are getting your own bitcoin rather getting overly worried about what other bitcoin-related folks are doing and/or not doing to fuck around with bitcoin and/or to financialize bitcoin, even though also several aspects of the financialization of bitcoin is just part of the whole bitcoin adoption and/or network effects (financialization was one of the 7 aspects pointed out by Trace Mayer more than 10 years ago.. so it is not like the ideas of some of the network effects are new ideas), anyhow, so it is not like we should be fighting network effects and various aspects of BTC's seemingly inevitably upwardly violent adoption.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

Go bitcoin, go,

That's the spirit.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

but

I had the sense that a "but" was going to be in there.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

we all know that ever since bitcoin was created every sort of charlatan, crook, reprobate, robber, pederast, and in general the worst people have emerged from the rocks under which they'd been hiding, waiting for a juicy opportunity to...let's say 'redistribute wealth'.

Yes.. bitcoin is for everyone and anyone.. and I frequently like to proclaim that any person in the world is better off with bitcoin if he has some discretionary income so that he can buy some and build up his holdings in it, rather than merely being advantaged by the indirect benefits of having bitcoin in this here world of ours as a seemingly really great (and powerful) paradigm shifting invention/discovery that cannot be uninvented or undiscovered, so we have to attempt to deal with the fall out in the way that it is rather than the way that we wished it to be..

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

Y'all can disagree with me, but I would not trust a very loud voice from the billionaire cheering section nor even think for a second that they have any of our best interests in mind.

You have the sense that some of us are too trusting of Saylor/MSTR and we are no longer engaging in enough critical thinking.

I doubt that you are the only critical thinker in these here parts merely based on your seeming to want to whine quite a bit about MSTR and/or Saylor, and I doubt that your visoin is better than other guys around here who happen to view some of these MSTR/Saylor matters differently from how you seem to.

Quote from: slaman29 on July 01, 2025, 11:03:27 AM

BTW now somebody is thinking to do Microstrategy strat of BTC accumulation but for ETH. I kinda think its a bad idea but at the same time super long term could be smart...

Those are not new ideas, and they are likely retarded to believe that ETH is sufficiently similar to BTC in order to justify their seemingly dumb ass accumulation of it... but hey guys can do whatever they like in terms of investing in shitcoins (ETH or any other shitcoin or using leverage to buy ETH) and see how such seemingly retardedness goes for them and/or anyone involved in such shitcoin..

Quote from: Ambatman on July 01, 2025, 01:23:50 PM

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

but didn't ya kind of wonder why a big index would want that particular company included in the index's data all of a sudden?

Hence why the use of this "qualified For Consideration"
They may not approve it or might even delay it.
Strategy being added would around 0.2% weight to the S&P 500 say around $100billion market cap vs the index around $50 trillion
so its impact on retail portfolios might be diluted.

Ok.. fair enough that the criteria is not completely objective. I am pretty sure that previously I had read that there was some discretion in terms of MSTR's entrance into the S&P500... so that their inclusion was not automatic and/or based on completely objective criteria..

Quote from: Ambatman on July 01, 2025, 01:23:50 PM

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

why a big index would want that particular company included in the index's data all of a sudden?

They haven't confirmed that it would.
The thing is MSTR meets the criteria in being considered for listing
https://www.bankrate.com/investing/s-p-500-stocks-list-of-additions/

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 01, 2025, 10:51:11 AM

but I would not trust a very loud voice from the billionaire cheering section nor even think for a second that they have any of our best interests in mind.

They don't. I don't think anybody his naive to think they are Messiah of Bitcoin.

hahahahaha.. good point... and you are showing that TSC seems to get overly emotional in terms of his seeming to exaggerate and suggest that we all love MSTR merely because we are acknowledging MSTR's existence and their ongoing pumpening of dee cornz and ideas about dee cornz.

Saylor and Fink our like our unpaid marketers... even though, sure whatever, they get paid, but they are still pumping our bags (at least those of us who had mostly gotten in before them)

Quote from: Ambatman on July 01, 2025, 01:23:50 PM

They want a piece of the pie
Just like Real estate giants saw the advent of Land, they are competing on this too.

People speculate on scarcity in all kinds of ways, and there is not any exact analogy since bitcoin is protocol layer money and brings a kind of new twist to money... so land is likely ONLY a partially fitting analogy.