Quote from: novello on June 05, 2014, 03:16:41 PM

Quote from: jonnybravo0311 on June 05, 2014, 03:06:31 PM

Quote from: Majixagi on June 05, 2014, 02:20:21 PM

Quote from: novello on June 05, 2014, 12:32:48 PM

Quote from: BenTuras on June 05, 2014, 11:45:35 AM

Quote from: novello on June 05, 2014, 11:40:56 AM

... get funding ...

You're asking for us to be investors, why not give us the benefits of investors in return ?

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your input.

Strictly speaking you're buyers, not investors. We promise you delivery of an item at a future date in return for your payment. I can see why you might think that though, your 'investment' , as it were, is to give you a commercial advantage when your item gets delivered.

As a company we will use virtually all the money we get in orders to fund system development, satisfy those orders and stay afloat while doing so. After that we have to try to solicit more orders to keep the company going and invest in R&D for new products.

In traditional markets such as if we were buying a car or even a computer you would be correct in saying that we are buyers, not investors. However, people who purchase miners are not purchasing hardware so much as they are purchasing an investment. So even with "off the shelf" purchases we are investors who are taking a calculated risk with what we purchase. We aren't buying a miner to be cool (or hot) or because it gives us pleasure to look at or provides any utility to us outside of an investment.

The pre-order scheme takes that investment mindset a step further and asks the customer to take on additional risk beyond their calculated risk. It asks the customer to take risks that can't be calculated as accurately because there is less available information. Strictly speaking, from our perspective, in a pre-order we are not buyers but co-investors. A company who understands that this is the mindset of the small-time bitcoin miner would be a refreshing approach to the market.

Quite simply, you are incorrect here. You are, and will remain, a buyer. If you were an investor, you would be sending money to the company, and would expect return on your investment from the company based on performance. People who purchase stock in a company are investors.

You are sending money to the company with the intent of receiving a product. What you then do with that product once you have received it is not relevant to the company. If it so happens that this product makes you some money, then so be it.

Your investment is in BTC. By purchasing a miner, you are making a decision to actively support the BTC network. That's what mining is: supporting and helping secure the network. You are rewarded for your efforts with generated coins.

What Novello is stating is the following (and yes, I'm taking their entire plan and compressing it to a couple of sentences): We are going to build mining hardware that will be competitive and allow the "little guy" to remain in the mining game. We are going to do this by providing great price-to-hash value in the hardware, and by providing relatively inexpensive ways to continuously upgrade your existing hardware. To achieve our goal of great hardware at a great price, we need capital; and, to receive that capital we are looking to the mining community to believe in us and pre-order our hardware.

Whether or not they succeed with their mission remains to be seen. They have a long, tough road ahead of them, both to secure funding and to produce the hardware on time and on budget. As can be seen throughout this post, MANY of the very people they are hoping will invest are extremely skeptical from being burned so many times in the past by other companies.

Hi Johnny,

Thanks for the post. Mind if we use your 'compressed' words in the future? Couldn't have put it better ourselves.

You're welcome to use my summary if you wish.

Quote from: Majixagi on June 05, 2014, 03:21:37 PM

Quote from: jonnybravo0311 on June 05, 2014, 03:06:31 PM

Quote from: Majixagi on June 05, 2014, 02:20:21 PM

In traditional markets such as if we were buying a car or even a computer you would be correct in saying that we are buyers, not investors. However, people who purchase miners are not purchasing hardware so much as they are purchasing an investment. So even with "off the shelf" purchases we are investors who are taking a calculated risk with what we purchase. We aren't buying a miner to be cool (or hot) or because it gives us pleasure to look at or provides any utility to us outside of an investment.

The pre-order scheme takes that investment mindset a step further and asks the customer to take on additional risk beyond their calculated risk. It asks the customer to take risks that can't be calculated as accurately because there is less available information. Strictly speaking, from our perspective, in a pre-order we are not buyers but co-investors. A company who understands that this is the mindset of the small-time bitcoin miner would be a refreshing approach to the market.

Quite simply, you are incorrect here. You are, and will remain, a buyer. If you were an investor, you would be sending money to the company, and would expect return on your investment from the company based on performance. People who purchase stock in a company are investors.

You are sending money to the company with the intent of receiving a product. What you then do with that product once you have received it is not relevant to the company. If it so happens that this product makes you some money, then so be it.

Your investment is in BTC. By purchasing a miner, you are making a decision to actively support the BTC network. That's what mining is: supporting and helping secure the network. You are rewarded for your efforts with generated coins.

What Novello is stating is the following (and yes, I'm taking their entire plan and compressing it to a couple of sentences): We are going to build mining hardware that will be competitive and allow the "little guy" to remain in the mining game. We are going to do this by providing great price-to-hash value in the hardware, and by providing relatively inexpensive ways to continuously upgrade your existing hardware. To achieve our goal of great hardware at a great price, we need capital; and, to receive that capital we are looking to the mining community to believe in us and pre-order our hardware.

Whether or not they succeed with their mission remains to be seen. They have a long, tough road ahead of them, both to secure funding and to produce the hardware on time and on budget. As can be seen throughout this post, MANY of the very people they are hoping will invest are extremely skeptical from being burned so many times in the past by other companies.

It's simply fantasy to believe that everyone in bitcoin mining is doing so for altruistic reasons. There may be a few of those people left, but none of those are interested in pre-orders or supporting the arms race in any way. People mine bitcoin for the rewards and no other reason. People will cause 51% dangers because of the perception that rewards are greater by following the crowd.

Your very last sentence negated the whole point you were trying to make by admitting customers were investing.

I never stated people are mining for altruistic reasons, nor was it implied. I haven't purchased hardware for the sole reason of supporting the network, I'm also hoping that the rewarded coins I receive for mining will translate into profit. You're absolutely correct that the majority of people who mine care solely about the rewards they will receive. They'll just point their miners to whatever pool they feel will provide the greatest reward and that's the end of it.

I will edit my final sentence to state, "... people they are hoping will pre-order their product..." as it better explains the point I was trying to convey. Thanks for pointing that out.