Quote from: CoinGeneral on June 07, 2014, 06:04:03 AM

Quote from: the joint on June 06, 2014, 08:52:19 PM

1). Aside from boxing ability, Jeff Primm was (and now certainly is) provably in better shape than Mike Tyson in his prime (more lean muscle mass with a lower body-fat percentile and comparable agility and stamina). Now, Jeff is in his mid to late 50's and he's still over 250 lbs. at ~6% body fat. He looks like he's in his late 30's and sill has the strength of an NFL linebacker and the speed/agility of a running back. I'd listen to him over Tyson any day, and in any time period.

No one on juice is going to admit they're on it, but no out-of-shape weakling will admit that they aren't jacked because they're relatively ignorant about proper nutrition and exercise.

2). If I asked Jeff for steroids, he'd likely be enormously insulted as that would be like me spitting on all of the knowledge he passed on to me as a result of 30+ years of experience in nutrition and exercise, including knowledge gained while obtaining the dozen or so licenses and certifications he possesses.

Take the advice of Kali Muscle then, he doesn't even do any supplements, no drugs, nothing! All he does is eat clean and exercise for a few hours a day! He is totally legit man, don't ask him about steroids because that will be an insult to his clean and drug free lifestyle:

Also Mike Tyson worked out DAILY for freakin' 15 HOURS A DAY. But don't take advice from a person that works hard and wins worldwide championships, take advice from people that do a few machine exercises then gets super huge and runs a gym for profit and sells supplements. There are SO many personal trainers out there that take drugs and steroids man, and everyone not inside that industry is a sucker! I can't believe you are so oblivious! Do you believe that Twin Muscle Workout, Strength Camp Elliot, Mike Chang, etc, are natural too?

Mike Tyson workout:
I was looking through my old Boxing information, and i came across this information on Iron Mike's conditioning regimen up until 1988-1990. 500 press ups (good old traditional hard millitary style pushups), 800 dips, 2000 sit ups, 500 shrugs with a 30 kg barbell all within a hour timespan.

Also, according to the article, up until he fired Kevin Rooney in 1988, his ONLY diet was steak, pasta and fruit juice. How's that for discipline?

Daily Regime (7 days a week):
5am: get up and go for a 3 mile jog
6am: come back home shower and go back to bed (great workout for those huge legs of his)
10am wake up: eat oatmeal
12pm: do ring work (10 rounds of sparring)
2pm: have another meal (steak and pasta with fruit juice drink)
3pm: more ring work and 60 mins on the exercise bike (again working those huge legs for endurance)
5pm: 2000 sit-ups; 500-800 dips; 500 press-ups; 500 shrugs with a 30kg barbell and 10 mins of neck exercises
7pm: steak and pasta meal again with fruit juice (orange i think it was)
8pm: another 30 minutes on the exercise bike
then watch TV and then go to bed.

Quote from: the joint on June 06, 2014, 08:52:19 PM

3) You're right, you didn't say all drugs are bad. But you did imply that creatine is bad because, as a drug, it is not all natural, and you *did* also imply that all unnatural things are bad. Don't you remember childishly poking fun at me because I take creatine and can't attain my athleticism the all-natural way? The only bad thing you've had to say about creatine is that it isn't all natural; this implies that you think anything unnatural is bad or you wouldn't have anything bad to say about creatine. But, simply put, give any individual a creatine supplement and they will be hands-down better than before -- they will be stronger, have more endurance, and can generate more ATP.

Again, you're claiming to be a "natural" bodybuilder but take DRUGS like creatine and supplements. Plus who knows what other drugs and supplements you experimented with. But since steroids isn't a drug because it grows in our body, everyone on steroids is completely drug-free and natural.

Quote from: the joint on June 06, 2014, 08:52:19 PM

4) No, I didn't bring up veggie meats in the context of being bad because they are full of drugs; I said that I would agree that creatine is unnatural if you agree that a plant designed to look, smell, and taste like a chicken is unnatural. I brought this up because you poked fun at me taking creatine which you consider unnatural; I consider meat-like veggies unnatural. And, again, your whipping out your favorite fallacy (I.e. strawman) because all you're talking about is how processed fast-food meat is bad for you, and I don't even disagree with this. But, it's completely irrelevant for a carnivore-vs.-vegetarian debate. You would be better off omitting this sort of tangential argument. It does absolutely nothing to prove that eating meat is bad for you.

5) I voiced a "concern" about veggie meats only to point out your own contradiction, I.e. that you claimed it's unnatural and thus bad for me to take creatine, and so by that line of reasoning it must be bad to eat veggie meats because they, too, are unnatural. I was fighting back using your own unique blend of sloppy logic. You're just failing to recognize that the irrelevance of my concern is as irrelevant as your stated concerns about creatine and supplements.

Like I said, if you are going to consider anything that grows in your body to be natural, then take steroids, EPO, HGH, etc, and you'll still be fully natural according to your definition of natural. Can you admit the fact that you take drugs to improve bodybuilding performance and can't be classified as "fully natural" in that aspect? Or do you want to "tangent" into strawman talking about how veggie meats are unnatural...?

If meat was so healthy and natural, why does it cause so many health epidemics? Take for example obesity, high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, etc. Eat meat and your risk for these diseases and unhealthiness skyrockets. However, take a vegetarian or vegan diet up and you can completely reverse your illnesses and become the healthiest version of yourself.

I'm so full of energy all the time it's hard to get me to stop. I can jog for hours and hours on end without stopping, I jogged outside recently for over an hour, without stopping, and when I came back home I felt like I could have ran even more. I never felt this good while eating meat, I was NEVER able to run or keep up with people, but I just beat my body builder friend in a 1 mile race, and he's been working out practically his entire life.

It's no freakin' wonder so many vegans or vegetarians are running marathons, ultramarathons, etc, all the time because it's so hard to stop moving. So freakin' filled with energy all the time it's like, ZINGGGGG. Plus I no longer drink coffee, no more five hour energy, and I feel fantastic without any stimulants. NONE. CLEAN AND CLEARED.

Plus, you don't even know the feeling. You don't even know the natural high feeling of having full energy all the time. Not on any diets I have tried have I ever felt this way. If you think I'm overexaggerating or whatever, I freakin' hated waking up early in the morning, I hated being forced to run outside, usually I would crash in the afternoon so I would usually take a nap or another stimulant, but I'm just so full of energy now I could never have imagined feeling this way before trying it.

Quote from: the joint on June 06, 2014, 08:52:19 PM

6) About 80% of the protein I consume that isn't some type of protein supplement comes from canned tuna. Aside from the presence of mercury which is added by the environment instead of intentionally, please tell me where you got your ridiculous assumption that advertisements and marketing have confused me and manipulated me into eating stuff without any consideration for what I put in my body? Here you just start becoming a pretentious jackass.

Look dude, you're not some enlightened guru. It'd be one thing if the things you're spouting we're actually correct, but to be wrong and clearly proud of it results in me being both embarrassed for you and angry that you might actually be allowed to have children and raise them according to whatever fucked up logic you use (if you haven't already, in which case please pass my condolences to your children).

There's a point at which I have to say, "Okay, I tried but it's clear that this person wants to remain willfully ignorant." This is that point. When you're ready to be an adult and respond to my arguments as I make them instead of going through a process of ignore-fabricate-replace-argue, then I'll continue to engage in this debate. How can I possibly respond to your argument when the topic of argument shifts at your whim every paragraph?

I'm not an enlightened 'guru' but I am enlightened and open minded. At one point in your life no doubt you were eating at fast food restaurants, Burger King, McDonalds, etc, because everyone else you knew ate it, and you saw advertisements in TV about it, thought it was the normal thing to do. Fair enough, I did the same, going through drive-thru's, eating 'happy meals' and such. Then you got information from somewhere that fastfood wasn't good for you, so you stopped eating them or stopped frequenting them as much.

MOST people aren't like you though. Unfortunately the majority of people will never learn to research information on the foods they eat or what effects it has on their health. Some people know junk food is bad for them, smoking is bad for them, fast food is bad for them, etc, but take it anyway because they're not thinking of long-term results.

Let me know why it's okay to overfish the tuna population, torture innocent fish then slit their throats causing excrutiating pain upon death, cause extinction, etc, just so you can have your can of tuna for that day or whatever.

Yeah dude let's kill off the entire ocean and make all fish extinct! Screw the next generation growing up, let's use up all our natural resources, cut down all the trees, destroy the Amazon rain forest, screw up the environment, just so people can have heart attacks, die at a younger age, become obese, get cancer, mercury poisoning, etc!

Taking care of the planet starts with personal responsibility.

You're a complete waste of my time. Done with this debate. You are, by far, one of the most horrible debaters I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. You totally lack the ability to respond directly to a point and instead need to resort to making up other people's arguments for them, and then insult them to death by assuming they're too stupid not to notice. As a result, this entire thread is a transcript of you arguing against yourself and the countless counterpositions that you fabricate. Congrats, you're crazy.