Quote from: MaxwellsDemon on July 01, 2014, 05:15:25 PM

Quote from: DodoB on July 01, 2014, 03:44:14 PM

The Palestinians that were killed were NOT innocent,they were throwing rocks on armed soldiers and were RIOTING,not the best idea ever,especially when you want to return home without harm. They werent some random kids playing ball. On the other hand,the 3 Israeli teenagers were just hitchhiking,they got kidnapped and murdered just for being Jewish at the wrong place in the wrong time.

Your ability to parrot back the propaganda you heard from the MSM is truly adorable.

In fact, most of the Palestinians I mentioned were not killed during protests. A few died in their homes; the mentally-handicapped man I mentioned was literally walking down the street minding his own business, when soldiers who were raiding a nearby house yelled at him to stop. He did not immediately respond, so they shot him 4 times (link).

But the details don't really matter. I'm sure you didn't bother to examine any details about any of the deaths mentioned before you responded - you just assumed they must have been "rioting" if the IDF shot them. The real problem is not in the details, but in the substance of the propaganda you're repeating. The sad part is, you never bothered to take a minute and really think about the meaning of what you're parroting. So let's deconstruct it together.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you're absolutely right and all those Palestinians were killed during protests. Surely, many have died this way in the past, so this would not be surprising.
You say that they are "NOT innocent", because they were "RIOTING". So let's examine what that means.
Palestinians living in the West Bank, who have been under military occupation for 47 years, have their village raided yet again, by hundreds of heavily armed soldiers appearing in the middle of the night. They protest this loudly; some of them even throw stones at the armoured bulletproof jeeps. The jeeps are not even scratched, and neither, of course, are the soldiers. Nevertheless, this protest is illegal and the soldiers respond with rubber-coated bullets as well as live ammunition (in case you didn't know, any protest by Palestinians anywhere in the West Bank is illegal by military decree. Jews can protest wherever they wish, of course, and military decrees don't apply to them anyway). Dozens of Palestinians are injured, maybe one or two die.
So what you're saying is this: Palestinians who apply the human right of protest against a heavily armed foreign occupier, in violation of that occupier's laws and decrees, are now considered "NOT innocent", and therefore it is perfectly justified to kill them. If they were "random kids playing ball" that would be wrong, but if they are protesting against the occupation that is making their lives miserable, murdering them is absolutely legitimate (as an aside, I could find maybe three dozen examples of Palestinian kids being killed by soldiers when they really were just "playing ball", but I doubt that would convince you of anything).
Think about that a bit.

You also say that "rioting" is "not the best idea ever,especially when you want to return home without harm".
You are absolutely right about that. Protesting is a very dangerous proposition for a Palestinian, often deadly. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. Quite the opposite. Protest and popular struggle are the only possible recourse of the oppressed. I have nothing but respect and admiration towards the bravery of those who dare to protest against such absurdly superior force.
But this, again, is besides the point. How do you relate the fact that protesting is dangerous, with the protesters being "not innocent"? Is the fact that they took a risk for their freedom also a justification of their murder? The Jews who rebelled in the Warsaw ghetto in 1943 knew they would probably be wiped out within days; does that knowledge mean it was okay for the Nazis to kill them all?

As for the 3 Israeli teenagers, they were not just "Jewish at the wrong place in the wrong time". They were settlers, forceful colonizers of Palestinian lands. They chose to be in a place that is, in an ethical as well as a practical sense, totally wrong. I'm not saying that fact justifies their murder, but you have to admit they also took a calculated risk. They knew the settlements are a dangerous place, and the probability of getting kidnapped while hitchhiking there is much higher than inside Israel, and yet they chose to be there.
Unlike the Palestinians though, they were not taking this risk for their freedom. They had many other options. They could live anywhere in Israel except the settlements. They wanted to steal Palestinian land, they wanted to take part in the oppression. It is them who truly were "not innocent" in all this.

I wouldnt consider a Gazan site as a balanced source. I wouldnt be surprised if that "handicapped" guy was not actually handicapped,did you real the article? wth was a handicapped dude doing outside in 3:30 during an army raid? Some stuff in the article sound very doubtful. (inb4 im accused of being a zionist slave)
From the article " It should be mentioned that the Israeli forces called this campaign Cleaning the Stables." This info is incorrect. i would doubt every word in this article.

Quote from: MaxwellsDemon on July 01, 2014, 05:15:25 PM

(in case you didn't know, any protest by Palestinians anywhere in the West Bank is illegal by military decree. Jews can protest wherever they wish, of course, and military decrees don't apply to them anyway)

Source? A simple google search proves that statement is incorrect.

https://www.google.co.il/search?q=protest+in+west+bank&client=firefox-beta&hs=Vrj&rls=org.mozilla:he:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ef2yU77vIOzT7AbNjoGgCg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=943

This is a protest: http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/montreal_student_demo-1.jpg
http://assets.survivalinternational.org/pictures/1397/jumma-protest_screen.jpg

This is a riot: http://muslimvillage.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/palestinian_riot_01.jpg
http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2014/04/F140404IR02-e1396635971281.jpg

Can you spot the diffrence? If so,the latter one is what a Palestinian ~~riot~~ protest looks like. If this is how it looks like,id say replying with rubber bullets,live if necessary,is justified.

So if you say that Palestininans can and should ~~riot~~ protest,(I,agree it is their right to protest) dont you think they should also be able to face the consequences of fighting a much stronger enemy?

Quote from: MaxwellsDemon on July 01, 2014, 05:15:25 PM

The Jews who rebelled in the Warsaw ghetto in 1943 knew they would probably be wiped out within days; does that knowledge mean it was okay for the Nazis to kill them all?

Bad comprasion. the Jews were gassed/murdered systematically,with the sole purpose of eliminating Jews from Europe in a short timespan. Dont think you can say that Israel is trying to acheive the same goal with the Palestinians,even if they do,theyr'e realy bad at it. http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Graph_2.jpg

The Jews in the Warsaw uprising had 2 choices,Rebel and pray for that 1% you have to escape,or die in a gas chamber. The Palestinians on the other hand,were offered peace numerous times,they can escape to neighboring Arab states(which they did,and BTW their fellow Arab states dont like this idea so much,see "Black September in Jordan") Or simply not practice terrorism.
I dont think the Jews kidnapped German children and shot rockets on German cities.

Quote from: MaxwellsDemon on July 01, 2014, 05:15:25 PM

As for the 3 Israeli teenagers, they were not just "Jewish at the wrong place in the wrong time". They were settlers, forceful colonizers of Palestinian lands. They chose to be in a place that is, in an ethical as well as a practical sense, totally wrong. I'm not saying that fact justifies their murder, but you have to admit they also took a calculated risk. They knew the settlements are a dangerous place, and the probability of getting kidnapped while hitchhiking there is much higher than inside Israel, and yet they chose to be there.
Unlike the Palestinians though, they were not taking this risk for their freedom. They had many other options. They could live anywhere in Israel except the settlements. They wanted to steal Palestinian land, they wanted to take part in the oppression. It is them who truly were "not innocent" in all this.

Were thoose 3 teenagers responisble for the Jewish immigartion into Palestine in the late 18th centruy and later? I dont think so.
However you define them,they were born,raised and lived in the West Bank,they can call it their home as much as the Palestinians can.
The 3 teenagers were NOT combatants,they did not practice in combat activity,therefore,they are illegal to target under international law. The fact that Israel did X and Y whether justifiable or not,doesn't justify the murder of the teens.