Quote from: MaxwellsDemon on July 01, 2014, 09:20:46 PM

Quote from: DodoB on July 01, 2014, 07:21:14 PM

I wouldnt consider a Gazan site as a balanced source.

A very similar account of this incident appeared in numerous sources, including Israeli ones. This just happened to be the first source I found. But as I said, the details of this particular incident are not relevant - I agreed to assume, for the sake of argument, that all those Palestinians died during demonstrations.

Quote from: DodoB on July 01, 2014, 07:21:14 PM

Quote from: MaxwellsDemon on July 01, 2014, 05:15:25 PM

(in case you didn't know, any protest by Palestinians anywhere in the West Bank is illegal by military decree. Jews can protest wherever they wish, of course, and military decrees don't apply to them anyway)

Source? A simple google search proves that statement is incorrect.

https://www.google.co.il/search?q=protest+in+west+bank&client=firefox-beta&hs=Vrj&rls=org.mozilla:he:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ef2yU77vIOzT7AbNjoGgCg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=943

Heh, you strike me as one of those Israelis who lives 20 minutes away from the West Bank but has never stepped foot there. It takes a special type of cognitive dissonance to defend Israel's violent oppression of Palestinian protests, and at the same time staunchly refuse to accept the fact that Israel restricts the Palestinian right of protest Grin

And the funniest part is that your "evidence" is pictures of Palestinians protesting... I never said that they don't. In fact, I specifically said that they do... I also said that they are violently subdued by the Israeli army. Why don't you take another look at your own pictures, and tell me how many of them portray Israeli soldiers violently suppressing protesters. Your "simple google search" is evidence of my point much more than it is of yours.

As for the facts, I'd hate to burst your bubble but all Palestinian protest is indeed illegal by military decree (as I suspect you speak Hebrew, here's a couple of sources for you: Wikipedia, B'Tselem). This decree was given by the IDF immediately after the West Bank was occupied in 1967, and it strongly prohibits any kind of protest, including peaceful demonstration, under punishment of up to 10 years in prison. It is an illegal decree according to international law, which protects the right of protest in occupied territories, and it does not, of course, apply to Jews, even if they are protesting inside the West Bank.

Quote from: DodoB on July 01, 2014, 07:21:14 PM

This is a protest: http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/montreal_student_demo-1.jpg
http://assets.survivalinternational.org/pictures/1397/jumma-protest_screen.jpg

This is a riot: http://muslimvillage.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/palestinian_riot_01.jpg
http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2014/04/F140404IR02-e1396635971281.jpg

Can you spot the diffrence? If so,the latter one is what a Palestinian ~~riot~~ protest looks like. If this is how it looks like,id say replying with rubber bullets,live if necessary,is justified.

Great, you win the 2014 Academy Award for cherry-picking pictures from Google Images. I'm so proud.

As someone who has actually been to quite a few demonstrations, including in Palestine, let me tell you this: I would love to see the faces of those students in Montreal when they encounter the Israeli border police.
The difference between your pictures is that in the first ones, no one is shooting at the protesters. One wonders why you think "replying" is necessary at all, much less justified.

Quote from: DodoB on July 01, 2014, 07:21:14 PM

So if you say that Palestininans can and should ~~riot~~ protest,(I,agree it is their right to protest) dont you think they should also be able to face the consequences of fighting a much stronger enemy?

Again with this strange logic of yours... So you agree they should have the right to protest, but you think they should "face the consequences" of the fact that Israel is much stronger?
Obviously, they do face the consequences. They get shot. If anything, that means you should respect their courage. But instead you use it as justification.
Please explain to me why the fact that Israel is stronger justifies the use of force against the occupied population. Are you advocating some kind of social Darwinism, where the weak get beaten by the strong and that's okay because it's the natural order of things?

Quote from: DodoB on July 01, 2014, 07:21:14 PM

Bad comprasion. the Jews were gassed/murdered systematically,with the sole purpose of eliminating Jews from Europe in a short timespan. Dont think you can say that Israel is trying to acheive the same goal with the Palestinians,even if they do,theyr'e realy bad at it. http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Graph_2.jpg

The Jews in the Warsaw uprising had 2 choices,Rebel and pray for that 1% you have to escape,or die in a gas chamber. The Palestinians on the other hand,were offered peace numerous times,they can escape to neighboring Arab states(which they did,and BTW their fellow Arab states dont like this idea so much,see "Black September in Jordan") Or simply not practice terrorism.
I dont think the Jews kidnapped German children and shot rockets on German cities.

Not only is none of that even remotely true, it's also entirely irrelevant to what I said.

Quote from: DodoB on July 01, 2014, 07:21:14 PM

Were thoose 3 teenagers responisble for the Jewish immigartion into Palestine in the late 18th centruy and later? I dont think so.
However you define them,they were born,raised and lived in the West Bank,they can call it their home as much as the Palestinians can.
The 3 teenagers were NOT combatants,they did not practice in combat activity,therefore,they are illegal to target under international law. The fact that Israel did X and Y whether justifiable or not,doesn't justify the murder of the teens.

I actually completely agree with you here, and I never said otherwise.

Your point does raise some interesting questions though. If we agree that people born in settlements are not guilty for the crimes of their parents, does that mean that any act of ethnic cleansing, no matter how horrific, can just be whitewashed by waiting a few decades? Certainly, the ethnic cleansing of 1948 was whitewashed to oblivion and made entirely irreversible by the passing of time. If this is the case, one can only conclude that the Palestinian struggle for liberation bears even greater urgency.

The article saying he was mentally handicapped sounds like a cheap excuse for what he was actually doing,along with the site being Gazan,i have a good reason to doubt this artice.

Dunno about your logic but an angry mob "Protesting" by throwing rocks,molotovs,and other kinds of improvised arms seems like a threat to me,and if i was a soldier it would be my duty to retaliate.
whether this "no protesting" law exists or not the Palestinian don't really seem to care about it,which makes the law irrelevant.

You dont seem to know the diffrence between a riot and a protest,look it up.

Quote from: MaxwellsDemon on July 01, 2014, 09:20:46 PM

Again with this strange logic of yours... So you agree they should have the right to protest, but you think they should "face the consequences" of the fact that Israel is much stronger?
Obviously, they do face the consequences. They get shot. If anything, that means you should respect their courage. But instead you use it as justification.
Please explain to me why the fact that Israel is stronger justifies the use of force against the occupied population. Are you advocating some kind of social Darwinism, where the weak get beaten by the strong and that's okay because it's the natural order of things?

Fighting a tank with a stick when you can simply stay home and live your life,and as a result getting killed,is not courage,is stupidity. why should i admire stupidity? Dont want the occupying force to disturb your life? dont kidnap children.
Of course you can resist the occupier,but killing his children even though a form of resistance will likely get you in more trouble,as death only brings more death.

Quote from: MaxwellsDemon on July 01, 2014, 09:20:46 PM

Not only is none of that even remotely true, it's also entirely irrelevant to what I said.

Um you brought the Holocaust comparison up,not me Undecided

Quote from: MaxwellsDemon on July 01, 2014, 09:20:46 PM

the crimes of their parents, does that mean that any act of ethnic cleansing, no matter how horrific, can just be whitewashed by waiting a few decades?

Well,it worked for the European colonists in America,for the Turks in Cyprus,For the Russians in Crimea,for the Muslims in the Balkans,for the Europeans in Australia,shall i go on?

Quote from: MaxwellsDemon on July 01, 2014, 09:20:46 PM

Certainly, the ethnic cleansing of 1948 was whitewashed to oblivion and made entirely irreversible by the passing of time.

Explain how the Palestininan population in Israel and the West Bank keeps growing in spite of the so called ethnic cleansing.

Quote from: MaxwellsDemon on July 01, 2014, 09:20:46 PM

If this is the case, one can only conclude that the Palestinian struggle for liberation bears even greater urgency.

Tell more more about how the Israeli-Palestininan conflict drastically effects your life in Canada/Europe/Wherever you live. (Assuming you're not Palestinian)
And if it is that fact that a few western states give some support for Israel,im pretty sure 70%+ of the earth's population will gladly sell their soul to Israel to have the same quality of life that western leftists have