Quote from: inBitweTrust on July 19, 2014, 03:04:52 AM

What about con artists stealing from small businesses by requesting charge backs?
What about banks freezing your assets while they investigate?
What about governments seizing your assets for legal reasons or under asset seizures ?
Isn't one of the reasons why traditional bank fees much higher than bitcoin because theft is merely socialized and recouped across all participants and all theft indirectly affects all users?

I see what you say, and I agree with your points. Nevertheless, when I make a payment (as a customer) I feel much more comfortable paying with Paypal than with any other payment method (unless of course the seller is well known and respected as Amazon or Dell). "Accepted by Paypal" tells me two things about a site: (a) that they wouldn't be doing business with Paypal for long if they were scammers and (b) that I can get my money back if things go bad.
Of course, with Bitcoin and escrow one could do the same thing. Maybe one day the "Using escrow with inBitweTrust" (for example) will transmit the same level of customer protection as today Paypal. Now I understand better the real practical applications of multisig transactions.

Quote from: inBitweTrust on July 19, 2014, 03:04:52 AM

It is sometimes difficult to identify the detractors with an agenda from those offering healthy criticism.

I completely understand that posts like that of "LET'S CRASH BITCOIN" are tiresome and sometimes outright trolling. I am glad that you don't see me now as one of them.

Quote from: inBitweTrust on July 19, 2014, 03:04:52 AM

Escrow in Bitcoin is actually very inexpensive.[...]. In fact anyone can become an arbitrator.
Here is one example of a marketplace of arbitrators for multisig escrow: https://www.bitrated.com

Thanks for the URL, I didn't know it. On the other hand I don't completely agree with you about the economics of arbitrators, but well, time will say if they are cheap or expensive. Anyway, what I find a clear advantage is that the escrow is not needed in a normal scenario and, above all, it cannot steal the funds (as could theoretically Paypal do today).

Quote from: inBitweTrust on July 18, 2014, 03:05:25 PM

When someone steals my credit card, I am responsible for a 50 dollar deductible and all of the loss eventually comes back to hurt me and the rest of society. Merchant fees of 3-8% raise the prices of all goods and services. You don't get your money back, the loss is just abstracted and amortized.

I agree that today the loss is amortized, but I don't see it necessarily a bad thing. What is true is that chargebacks and insurance come at a price (which one may or may not be willing to pay, the market will decide).

Quote from: inBitweTrust on July 18, 2014, 03:05:25 PM

In the future with hardware wallets bitcoin will become much more secure as well.

I find hardware wallets a really promising technology and I hope the best for Trezor. I read in their thread that they are delivering.

Quote from: inBitweTrust on July 18, 2014, 03:05:25 PM

My point is the banks and governments have already betrayed the public's trust repeatedly and are not accountable.
They are corrupt and incompetent and should not be trusted. Decentralized mining pools have a much better track record.
I would personally rather deal with a hypothetical risk than a definite bad actor.
[...]
Extortion isn't just easier with Fiat but a central part of its design. Extortion and theft is an intrinsic property of Fiat and happens continuously.

I think I understand your general view (please correct me if I am wrong). Your vision is that Bitcoin, while having at this moment some drawbacks like yes, extortion by individual scammers is possible or funds can be lost (but coming technology is making this more unlikely than losing fiat) it solves the biggest of problems: institutionalized stealing by state agents and the economic elite. Or in other words, Bitcoin may, at this moment, make us a little bit more vulnerable to small-scale thefts (and even that is being solved) while protecting us from the biggest scammers who steal money in front of our face and modify the laws as needed to make it 'legal'.
If so, of course it would open another whole can of worms about in which situations the market should or should not be free, like in asymmetric information scenarios (car dealer-client, health insurance-client, etc), or in which scenarios could be useful to devaluate the currency and, of course, if the people who make these decisions are honest or not. But well, I am sure it would be a really interesting debate but that is not the scope of this thread.

Maybe we are in opposite sides of the world but thanks to Internet we are having this interesting discussion. If Bitcoin makes to the economy what the Internet made to the information I am sure that interesting times are coming.