Quote from: Holliday on March 09, 2012, 06:32:20 AM

Quote from: Lupus_Yonderboy on March 09, 2012, 05:34:21 AM

Funny I can say the same about those wanting to turn Bitcoin into a glorified form of cash. Just use cash instead, it is far more anonymous and stable than Bitcoin. What I want to do has never been done with any currency, ever, because it was previously impossible. Besides, we already have bankers and fees, they're called exchanges. Exchanges are also a point of centralization, btw. Everybody rails against the centralization, yet they use the exchanges. Because of the centralization exchanges would also be the best place to administer blacklists.

Well, yes I could use cash, and it would fit most of my needs. Except, it can be stolen (in person) much easier than Bitcoins. If I am meeting you face to face for a transaction, once we decide to complete the exchange, there are ways Bitcoin can protect me. A less secure option would be a locked phone with the Spinner app and just enough coins for the transaction. An extremely secure option would be family at home waiting for my email with the payment address. With Bitcoin, I can arrange to make a purchase from any stranger, and go to the place to make the exchange without carrying anything of value except a phone (and various other things that I don't leave home without). Same goes for selling items, I only need to take the items, and a way to check the block chain. Now, this may seem like a ridiculous precaution to some, but I like tools that provide me with additional security without too much complexity. Bitcoin is far superior to cash in this aspect. Plus carrying any large amount of cash can actually raise suspicion from "authorities" these days. Cash is easy to confiscate if those authorities decide they don't like what you are doing. I've read plenty of horror stories of authorities abusing their power against perfectly law abiding folks. Knowledge of my rights and knowing when to assert them goes a long way, but you can still find yourself in a bad spot without breaking a single law. So, I have to protect myself from criminals and authorities. Sad

Also, I've never used a Bitcoin exchange. Wink

For face to face transactions, Bitcoin is no more secure than cash. The same methods used to forcefully take cash or items from you in a deal gone bad can also be used to force a bitcoin transaction. Most families would release the coins if their loved one was being held at gunpoint. I will agree that carrying a smartphone is far less obvious than a duffel bag/backpack full of cash, but anyone that can force you to give up the cash can also force you to send an email. I am not saying that it would be simple or easy for them to do, just that once your personal security is overcome Bitcoin and cash are equally insecure.

As far as authorities go you are correct. Having tens or hundreds of thousands in cash is often as bad as having drugs or similar contraband. On the other hand, courts are ruling that searching/copying cell phones during traffic stops without a warrant is legal. To be honest I havent been paying attention to any mobile bitcoin payment solutions, so I dont know how resistant they might be to a tech inclined cop having temporary control over the phone and imaging it.

Quote from: Holliday on March 09, 2012, 06:32:20 AM

Quote from: Lupus_Yonderboy on March 09, 2012, 05:34:21 AM

Look, even if I am not the one to bring this now, somebody will sooner or later. Why? Because it can be done. Put it out there now, while we are in beta, and let the market sort it out. If nobody respects tainted coins then the whole thing falls apart and it can be permanently put to bed, with proof it doesn't work. Otherwise this issue will pop up every time there is a major heist, and there will be more thefts. Besides, for those who argue this will destroy Bitcoin, what happens if a determined attacker implements this? You don't need a majority of the network, only a few %, after which it snowballs.

Honestly, I think it will happen at some point (if it isn't already happening at Gox, I don't know but some have suggested that it is to some extent). The reason I post in these threads is I want people to stop and consider a different point of view. Protect yourself and you should never need a blacklist. I understand that people calling for a blacklist have good intentions, as I did when I used to call for one. But I honestly believe that if it becomes commonplace, it will change Bitcoin into something less powerful. Tools are usually more useful if they have multiple uses! I've tried to show some ways that a blacklist can remove some of the usefulness of Bitcoin. And I'm sure there are plenty of examples I haven't even thought of yet.

I dont see how protecting myself better equals not ever receiving stolen property. Tools are indeed more useful when they have more uses and when they are used to their maximum potential. I am talking about taking the functionality already there in the block chain and leveraging that to make thefts worthless. 25k+ btc are a tempting reward for a group of hackers to spend weeks or months trying to break into a hardened target. Its not so tempting a reward if the coins can be rendered worthless immediately after the theft.

Quote from: Holliday on March 09, 2012, 04:07:37 AM

Quote from: Lupus_Yonderboy on March 09, 2012, 05:34:21 AM

I know I won't convince you, especially after I noticed you made many similar arguments several months ago. Multi-sig has me seriously reconsidering my security argument. I will ponder the rest of it. I do want to thank you for being civil. I appreciate it.

I try to be civil as possible because I find one can accomplish so much more than they could with name calling or harsh language. I honestly want Bitcoin to be secure for those that find it useful and I want those calling for a blacklist to consider some of the possible negative unintended consequences that it may create. I think we can find technological ways to secure Bitcoins that will make theft practically impossible. I still think some genius will create a hardware "wallet" that will be easy to use, yet extremely secure. Imagine a wallet on a card that erases itself if the wrong pin/password is entered once. Of course you have a copy of the wallet safe at home! The more Bitcoin grows, the better the services and products that will grow alongside it.

We have technological ways to help prevent theft, multisig and blacklists Wink

. If you can successfully prevent all thefts by other means, blacklists lose any possible use. Your card idea is interesting, but only those who want to be exceptionally secure will use it because getting a new card when you fd up entering your pin/password is a big PITA.

Quote from: Holliday on March 09, 2012, 06:32:20 AM

Also, I want people to be responsible. Perhaps the way society has evolved has taken much of that responsibility away from the individual. But thieves will normally find a victim, and all of society suffers for it, because someone is able to obtain power (money) without offering something positive in return. With Bitcoin, we have a chance to relearn responsibility where it concerns our money. This can be a very good thing if we continue to strive for it, and it may spread responsibility into other aspects of our lives (I'm thinking a global scale here). Instead of figuring out how to punish thieves, we can figure out how to prevent theft in the first place, and then we can move on to other abuses, after all, so much abuse comes from the desire to obtain money (power). If everyone on the planet was twice as responsible with their money as they are now, I think it would be a much better place to live in (of course I'm talking about responsibilities other than security now).

Unfortunately you still have to provide some kind of deterrent for the theft in the first place. Robbing a bank will get you 10 years or so in prison. If the police never chased any bank robbers or the courts never prosecuted them, bank robberies would vastly increase. No financial system could withstand that, even ones where you can just print more money at will. Thats what we have in Bitcoin world. We have no cops, no courts (and no I am not advocating for such), no way to punish those who commit crimes against others. We give thieves a free pass on their crimes every single time.

I too, am trying for a more secure Bitcoin. I believe in this project, and I came here from a tech standpoint. I am not afraid of changes to beta software, unlike a vast majority of people here. Seriously, if you dont plan on changing it, make it production software and stop calling it a beta test. Just look at the discussions over BIP 16/17, or the people freaking out over BIP 30. The irony is extremely funny. A bunch of people want to use a revolutionary currency, but are absolutely terrified of any changes made to it. Bitcoiners are a lot more scared of changes to Bitcoin than bankers are afraid of changes to their system. I really feel for the devs, because any time they suggest a change or a bugfix to the general Bitcoin public, people start running around with their hair on fire. (Note: For anyone just joining us, I am *not* suggesting a change to the actual protocol.)