Quote from: numisma on July 31, 2014, 11:34:33 AM

I agree with both your statements. (I think I saw one more comment?)

From my point of view, I always check the very top or the peak of the "pump", if I can express myself like that. And I always like to see where's the bottom or where is the "base", where people would rather hold then sell. And at the moment, we can't see these details from Cloak, but DRK has hit the bottom at the moment in my opinion, while Cloak is still rising. We shall see very soon how things turn out.

So if you take the Cloak's volume as a Pro, is way to dangerous to say, because as fast as you can earn money, you can also lose it..

-N.

Since Cloak has been out on the market less time, and is currently listed on less Exchanges. I think the price can drop and rise more aggressively. As you stated, it goes both ways. Dark has been dropping pretty smoothly for the last month so we will see with time how gracefully the price of Cloak readjusts itself.

Quote from: burner2014 on July 31, 2014, 11:36:32 AM

Nice thread!

What I would like people to compare:

1. POSA vs. the RC4 Masternode System

2. One Market vs. the opportunities with the Rc4 Masternode System

3. The Developer Team Cloak vs. The Developer Team Dark

Cheers guys!

Disclaimer: I want to be neutral so I cannot discuss, I ask questions

1. I believe the PoSA algo has been used for some time so there is more real world testing done with it. Please correct me if I am wrong, the RCs Darkcoin has released were pretty Darkcoin centric and not based on existing algos. Nothing wrong with not taking the beaten path, and with that came many more RCs. But he keeps trying and thats whats important. I hate to quote Edison as I am a Telsa fan, but he has a good point "I have not failed 1,000 times. I have
successfully discovered 1,000 ways to NOT make a light bulb."

2. OneMarket and the MasterNode systems are both brand new techs, With one Market you will get away from the centralized Tor site issue that many other Darknet sites suffered from. And regarding MasterNodes, its a great way to get involved in getting Devidends from the Darkcoin network without the huge waste of power consumption of POW. As before the only other way was POS, which was basically getting interest for holding coins in your wallet. MNs help secure the network, and you get paid at the same time, but without the massive power comsumption.

3. As Sleepyx stated a couple posts after you not much is known about the Cloakcoin Devs. Evan is known and I believe they were talking devs on the darkcoin forum to use their real names for their avatars. Not sure how that turned out.

Quote from: salmion on July 31, 2014, 11:41:31 AM

Darkcoin uses a trustless system of multiple premixing advanced conjoin variant more like it.

More pros for darkcoin

- while darksend+ is still closed source how it works has been explained (unlike PosA - could be great, could be useless, who knows, hope it's good because competition is good)

- Code review by the creator of conjoin sudoko - kristov atlas so if he says it's good, it's good.

- Higher volume over a longer time period (cloak is shooting up and well done to them but on average DRK has had way higher volume for way longer)

Cons
the instamine could you include http://wiki.darkcoin.eu/wiki/FAQ#Was_Darkcoin_Instamined.3F
Written about in detail and people can make their own minds up.

And include sources in general..

I believe the Darkcoin team stated they will open Darksend+ code, though Cloak has not made any claims they are planning on releasing source code.
Code review by the creator of conjoin sudoko - kristov atlas: I believe we are still waiting on his findings, I am quite excited to see what he has found.. Does anyone know if Kristov is planning on working with the CloakCoin Devs to do the same?

+1 on the volume

Added sources as well.

Quote from: PoS on July 31, 2014, 12:11:46 PM

The issue with Darkcoin is the release at the most inconvenient time, Sunday 4 AM and then instamining the shit out of it with 50 Amazon AWS nodes and 50 microsoft cloud computing, no windows wallet is just another minor fact.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=560138.msg7535561#msg7535561
I did have a fair few darkcoins but exited Dark and got Cloak about a week ago.

Yes it was unfortunate when they launched, I wonder what their reasons were for only a 7 day POW system. To me it is quite suspicious.

Quote from: stealth923 on July 31, 2014, 12:14:46 PM

And this is just another few reasons why Darkcoin coin will succeed:

Darksend+ technology which has over 6 months of development and been written from the ground up to evolve previous solutions, this is how you get better, you try, and try again until you succeed. Success very rarely happens on the first go
Darksend+ huge advantage that coins are anonymized & denominated through 8 masternodes and sent back to the user. The user can then send straight to the recipient anonmyously. This removes any responsibility/liabilities that MN owners could have. Competitor coins all forward coins through their systems which is flawed.
Professional solution explanations with diagrams to clearly how the proposed solutions will work
Full transparency to the testing environment where everyone is involved, nothing is hidden
Open communication about what bugs they are tackling, this shows confidence in the solution
World class team, leading innovation which all coins just look toward and copy in some way shape or form
Taken seriously enough to have Kristov Atlas onboard to help review and improve the technology
Over 830 masternodes which their potential has not even begun to be realized, and already solves many economic pitfalls apparent in the BitCoin node design. 830 Masternodes is likely more than any competitor has for wallets open at a single point in time.
IP obfuscation solution has been announced and the solution will be open sourced after Kristov review is the last piece of the puzzle.

Now compare this to some of the competitors who:

4-6 weeks old and have not had any REAL discussions on how the technology actually applies to design & attack weaknesses. When questioned, replies like "we have thought and tested through these scenarios"....so suddenly you are world leading security experts and can test against all known attack vectors.
Release whitepapers with a box with a single word in it which supposed to encompass the entire solution, my 3 year old can do this
Have to tell their users to "refrain" from using the solution when they release it, then why release it?
When questioned about their solution, delete the posts in their thread and in the media deliver one line statements like "the data is encoded to hide the sender"...but how..?
Cannot even get anonymity working so lets start coding an entire openmarket to give more hype....If you dont think anonymity is a serious and complex enough solution, you obviously have no idea.
Can only make videos as justification to prove it works.
Have no background to the development team as they are 100% anonymous. What if they are just great video editors and graphic designers.
Both of the main competitors use Proof of Stake and have given only 1 week of PoW....this is taking centralization to a new level.
Dev's have admitted to not having great anonymity, and are still trying to think of solutions for bad actors such as centralized black listing which was floored in the XC rev 1.0 design and hence thrown out. Additionally now possibly copying Darkcoin by requiring to have "small investments" to become a node
Have made no announcements or plans to open source.

"Full transparency to the testing environment where everyone is involved, nothing is hidden:"

I believe a lot of their code is not subject to review, only when working closely with their team such as Mr Atlas would be able to see whats in the software at this moment.. Hopefully that will change soon.

"4-6 weeks old and have not had any REAL discussions on how the technology actually applies to design & attack weaknesses."

I believe they will find out the hard way when hackers test it.

"Darksend+ huge advantage that coins are anonymized & denominated through 8 masternodes and sent back to the user."

I am curious how long it will take to send and receive coins when going through 8 MNs. Seeing RC4 live should answer that.

Quote from: rethink-your-strategy on July 31, 2014, 12:28:31 PM

Quote from: illodin on July 31, 2014, 12:10:34 PM

Note though, that he is not creating new cryptography, he is using well established, true and tested existing cryptography.

Mathematicians and cryptographers have often produced new crypto that has later been proven faulty.

Oh absolutely, I'm not suggesting he invent new cryptography. I'm suggesting he provide cryptographically sound mathematical models to show how these "masternodes" are impervious to collusion, Sybil attacks, or an attacker DDoSing the DarkCoin P2P port on enough of them so that they control a sufficient number. This is the sort of thing anyone competent would do BEFORE they start coding.

So, keeping it in line with topic:

Darkcoin Cons:
- lack of peer-reviewed cryptography
- lack of understanding of threat models
- developer is clearly incompetent (see failed RCwhatever releases causing forks)
- whitepaper contains no mathematical proof of the resilience of the anonymity set to attacks
- whitepaper contains a mathematical formula for the block reward curve that is completely unrelated to the actual block reward curve (see Darkcoins in Circulation - First 128 days, and Darkcoin Block Reward Emission Curve - First 128 Days), implying either a completely incompetent developer, or a developer that actively and aggressively cheats

Cloackcoin Cons:
- lack of peer-reviewed cryptography
- lack of understanding of threat models
- "elected" nodes open to Sybil attacks and cheating
- whitepaper contains no mathematical proof of the resilience of the anonymity set to attacks
- uses PoS, which introduces lots of technical failures and methods of cheating of its own

"This is the sort of thing anyone competent would do BEFORE they start coding."

It is very hard to protect from zero day attacks by definition of their nature. Of course there are many ways to do penetration testing on your products but many will be unforeseen until they occur. It would seem both coins are testing ground breaking tech, the question is what exploits will be found.