Quote from: lebek on April 12, 2012, 07:24:24 AM

Quote from: Meni Rosenfeld on April 11, 2012, 08:24:57 PM

This isn't clear at all. Is the ciphertext known only to the file owner? If so, does this mean that only the owner can verify? And even if everyone can verify, again - what incentive do they have to do this? I don't want a system where the owner needs to continuously operate a node to keep everyone honest. He should be able to upload, pay for storage for X period with Y redundancy, forget about it, let the system keep itself in check, and connect at a later time to download the file as needed. Is that really not a challenge?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Only a verify-cap can verify - neither being the files "owner" nor possessing the ciphertext is sufficient. The original uploader (or, "owner") has a verify-cap if she decides to keep it, and anyone she shares it with also has it. But you're right that the only users with incentive to verify a file are those that care about its integrity, Tahoe-LAFS isn't designed to "keep itself in check". If it was, you'd have to rely on some subset of the storage servers for integrity.

If I understand this correctly, it's worse than I thought.

Let's say I'm the original uploader. I'm keeping the verify-cap (and may or may not keep the file), and at some later time I want to verify that node A is storing the file as he's supposed to. Do I need A to send the entire file to me? Bandwidth is expensive, and this means each verification is expensive. So I can't do it very often, let's be generous and say once a month. So I upload the file to A and pay him. He chooses not to store it, and one month later he fails the verification. What penalty does he have? What recourse do I have? If I pay after the fact, what makes sure I pay? Since it's to a large extent about redundancy, I can choose to pay only in the contingency that I require the download. Also, what stops A from not storing the file, but rather redownload it from another node on each verification? If downloading each time is cheaper than storing it, A can cut costs and I lose the redundancy I paid for. If it's expensive, it also means I pay for the verification more than for the storage.

For the system to make any sense at all verification needs to be cheap. I was thinking some sort of probabilistic test where I quiz on X random bits, if I have a copy that's cheap, and the probability to pass the test without the file (or at least so large a portion of it that he may as well keep the whole thing) is slim. Then I can do verifications more rapidly which limit the room for manipulations. But unless there's some fancy cryptographic way to conduct the test without the entire copy, it still means I need to rely on other nodes to verify each other, and they also need to be incentivized to do that. And there needs to be some sort of conflict resolution (based on a probabilistic model) for times that I'm not around (even if I normally operate a trusted node, it could be down for maintenance or something).

I'll say again - a volunteer platform is entirely different than a monetized platform. When money is involved people will do everything they can to manipulate the system, steal and obtain pay for no work done. There needs to be a system resistant to manipulations, and I'm still not at all convinced Tahoe-LAFS is at that level.