Quote from: DodoB on August 25, 2014, 06:32:19 PM

Quote from: u9y42 on August 25, 2014, 05:56:47 PM

About 80% of the Palestinian casualties are civilians

According to Hamas-the numbers are most likely very diffrent.

The estimates of civilian casualties caused by Israeli attacks I've seen so far mostly range from about 70% to 80%. And even if you only want to take the IDF estimates, they put it at some 55% - quite indefensible no matter how you look at it, if you ask me.

Quote from: DodoB on August 25, 2014, 06:32:19 PM

Quote from: u9y42 on August 25, 2014, 05:56:47 PM

at what point should people stop calling these attacks accidents and instead start calling them intentional? Because they just keep on happening, time and time again. And no, Israel doesn't automatically have the right to kill civilians because Hamas might or might not be nearby.

Unavoidable Incidents like this are numerous and rare when looking at the fact that Israel made thousands of strikes in Gaza that were not targetet against civilians. its pretty much impossible to fight a war without civilian casualties,especially in densely populated areas.

Again, Israel doesn't have the right to further endanger and kill civilians just because Hamas might be nearby, and then keeping it up until it causes over 2000 casualties, over 10000 wounded, hundreds of thousands of refugees, and destruction of vital infrastructure that the population depends on to live. And you can only say this is unavoidable if you don't want to move to a peaceful solution - and unfortunately, Israel has no interest in a two state solution, or even a one state solution, for that matter, as evidenced by its actions over the years.

Quote from: DodoB on August 25, 2014, 06:32:19 PM

Quote from: u9y42 on August 25, 2014, 05:56:47 PM

Then we have the blockade imposed on Gaza, which according to official Israeli policy, is meant to keep the Palestinian population on a state just slightly above that consistent with a humanitarian crisis

Source? the official reason for the blockade is Hamas.

The sources are Israeli officials, as revealed by Wikileaks (http://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08TELAVIV2447_a.html).

Quote

[...]
Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis. [...] As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed to econoffs on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge (see reftel &D8).
[...]

Now, you can try and excuse this any way you want, Hamas or not, but you can't then ignore the consequences on the population that is forced to live under this regime, or how it serves to further radicalize it.

Quote from: DodoB on August 25, 2014, 06:32:19 PM

Quote from: u9y42 on August 25, 2014, 05:56:47 PM

Are we supposed to believe this isn't just a continuation of the Dahiya doctrine? Quoting IDF Northern Command Chief Gadi Eisenkot, What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on. We will apply disproportionate force on it and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases. [...] This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved. And quoting a Wikileaks release, "Eisenkot stated that Damascus fully understands what the Israelis did in Dahiya, and that the Israelis have the capability of doing the same to Syria. He suggested the possibility of harm to the population has been Hizballah leader Nasrallah's main constraint, and the reason for the quiet over the past two years".

This quote whether actually said this way or not proves nothing about the situation on the ground.

Again, this is an official quote from the current deputy chief of General Staff Gadi Eisenkot, made during an interview, and shown in another leaked cable: http://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08TELAVIV2329_a.html. Whether or not this reflects the reality on Gaza, you can see from the outcome on the ground.

Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 25, 2014, 06:33:30 PM

Well.... I have only one thing today. Don't poke the sleeping bear. If you do that, then don't complain when it bite back. Unlike the previous Gaza vs Israel conflicts, this conflict has seen a more balanced international reaction. People living outside the Middle-East are condemning the Israeli bombings as well as the Hamas rocket strikes.

That seems like the right reaction to me - but don't forget the circumstances which serve to perpetuate the conflict, namely, the blockade and the occupation.