Quote from: OhShei8e on September 03, 2014, 06:50:32 PM

Quote from: JorgeStolfi on September 01, 2014, 10:03:52 PM

The problem is that the client's opinion may not be relevant, if there are laws/precedents that determine how claims are assessed. If the law says to use method X, and one client tells Kobayashi that he prefers method X, it will almost certainly be method X. Even if all clients say that they prefer method Y, Kobayashy may say, "sorry, I must follow the law and use method X; thereafter you get together and re-distribute the spoils among yurselves as you like".

That question should be posed to Japanese bankruptcy lawyers and/or to Mt. Kobayashi. Didn't any clients retain Japanese lawyers to advise/represent them at the meeting?

Some have done this, but I have no contact. I'm not interested in sophisticated confrontations like this. In this game we will always lose. I'm sure. We have other (legal) weapons, because we are a very big group. If they will embezzle the available Coins, we are going to track these coins. I personally will not accept them as payment and I'm sure many other victims will do the same. Even if only some of the victims are not accepting these coins they became more and more worthless, because people will avoid to mix these coins with their good money. There are many, many victims who don't like to accept their own money as payment. Bankruptcy lawyers and other people are used to deal with fungible values and things they can hide. If they try to deduct us, they will learn their lesson for sure. We do not need lawyers for this.

Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you mean.

The 600'000+ bitcoins that were stolen/embezzled should be considered lost, unless by some miracle the thief is identified, caught by the police, prosecuted, and persuaded to return the coins. Kobayashi may ask the police to investigate the theft, if he has not done so; but that is not his job, and the bankruptcy proceedings will be closed well before the police investigation is complete. If said miracle occurs and those coins are recovered, the proceedings may perhaps be reopened to distribute them; but it is no use to discuss that possibility now.

So, the best you will get back, in the foreseeable future, is 1/4 of what you have lost.

Kobayashi was appointed by the court to figure out what is left of MtGOX's assets, collect the claims by the clients, validate those claims, and distribute among them those remaining assets -- mainly 200'000+ bitcoins and a couple million dollars, that were still in possession of MtGOX and that he has now legally taken custody of. He will obviously charge his fees for doing that non-trivial task (and for the consultants that he needs to hire), but plenty will be left over.

No one can get any of those coins without his agreement and the approval by the japanese court. Attempts to do so would be theft and worse, so don't even think about it.

IMHO, the first thing you all should do is to find out how the claims are going to be computed; if that is not decided yet, how much freedom the Japanese law allows. (There are principles of openness and fairness to all claimants, whether bitcoins and money can be accounted separately, etc. which may constrain the method even if the law does not determine it.) Note, again, that your preferences are not relevant, unless Kobayashi and the court choose to consider them. Note also that, depending on the accounting method chosen, the amount you may claim may be a million dollars, or may be zero.

If you are reasonably certain that you are entitled to a large sum, I belive that it pays to hire a Japanese lawyer, at least for basic advice. If your expected refund is not that large, maybe you should join a group and hire a lawyer as a group. Do not try to understand the laws without a lawyer. Heed the old saying, "he who chooses to be his own lawyer has a fool for client and an idiot for lawyer." Think of them as medical doctors: they may be greedy bastards, but if you need them, you have to use them.

Finally, some "legal" advice: when dealing with the law or lawyers, it helps a lot to wear a decent business suit and tie. Not a social jacket & pants, not party-animal uniform, not a young-silicon-valley-genius t-shirt, not a I'm-camping-in-the-public-park stye outdoor clothing. It sounds stupid, I know, but the universe is an incredibly stupid place.