Quote from: coinsolidation on September 06, 2014, 12:15:34 PM

Quote from: Kora on September 06, 2014, 06:44:55 AM

Quote from: coinsolidation on September 05, 2014, 09:46:23 PM

Quote from: DarkhorseofNxt on August 11, 2014, 03:53:51 AM

Quote from: Este Nuno on August 10, 2014, 03:06:41 PM

Quote from: DarkhorseofNxt on August 10, 2014, 02:36:59 PM

I know this is very early to suggest this, but it came into my mind. Can we form a group of people interested in making a research or analysis on how anyone in the world could convert fiat into any crypto/ora? Not talking about exchanges but other getaways and options. Prepaid cards, atm cards etc. Probably we can study and build a road map on this. This will not only benefit ora but also any other crypto. Not only talking about us or europe but how a person from any part of world can get an access into crypto world. What you guys think?

I'm interested in this. I'm working on Bitmark right now but we're very interested in making it an easy to use currency. So that type of real life purchase case research is of great interest to our project and perhaps we can share things we learn about this type of thing.

I'm in Asia and there are tons and tons of prepaid cards for all kinds of products. Being able to buy a prepaid card that can get you crypto would be amazing and be a huge step for adoption!

Is anyone else in the btt community working on this already? Probably you and me can jumpstart this project?

Can some members of Ora and Bitmark, and the wider community, team up to address this?

From our side consider yourselves to have any resources required - other than funds - we will gladly discuss, specify, and create anything required.

To kick start the effort I would propose the creation of a simple online key sweeper, given any private key (or alias for one) it sweeps the currency associated with the key in to a user supplied address.
Such a thing would serve as a simple framework to allow paper or plastic loaded cards, a receiver simply enters a code online and an address for any wallet, and they have funds within minutes. It can be replicated and made to be pretty later.

Thanks coinsolidation! I think co-operation between coin projects like ORA & Bitmark would be wonderfull, so thank you very much for following up. I'm not a tech guy myself, so probably can't add a whole lot to the tech side of this discussion myself, but as a regular user of crypto currencies I can see that making ALL crypto currencies more user friendly is in everyone's interest.

Like many, I have been following what jl777 has been doing with the SuperNET closely, and while the teleporting ideas to increase anon is very worthwhile and getting a lot of the attention, it's actually the prepaid debit card option that first got me interested in bitcoindark.

Being able to access crypto funds using a prepaid debit card via an ATM or at a POS terminal in a shop will make crypto currencies usable, in the current environment. If Bitmark & ORA could achieve the same result using another system to jl777's anon card, then that would provide some redundancy for the crypto movement in case jl777's system ran into problems, so I think it would be a great area to explore further.

In the end crypto currencies HAVE to be user friendly, and usable in everyday situations now, and that's via plastic cards, and to a lesser extent (but obviously growing rapidly) mobile devices.

edit: direction has to be both ways - (fiat > crypto) & (crypto > fiat) - can we devise one system that does both? jl777's anon card is (crypto>fiat) only, so maybe we can work on going the other direction, (fiat>crypto), but connect it into the same card processor, coinomat.

You are right, we need to devise open alternatives as a service to the wider community, and provide models going forward that do not rely on any one person, and also where the fates of projects are not tied - I (and we) share your thoughts on the matter.

An interesting question, can we devise a system that does both?

There is one such system that we plan to use heavily, the notion of micro trust, by trusting businesses and services which people already trust with smaller amounts of funds, we can utilize them as natural gateways - if any fiat accepting service allows withdrawals and deposits of marks, then they become a little gateway. We hope to initially avoid any AML or gov issues by being dressed as reputation, in the same way bitcoin has problems but facebook credits do not - just distributed rather than a single commercial entity.

I feel that speculators and the existing broad community is already heavily focused on crypto > fiat, it is easy to exit but hard to enter. Thus personally feel that the walls we need to break down are in to the systems not out.

Let me propose something backward: why don't we start by working on the worst and slowest ways to do fiat > crypto, then improve from there - rather than going for optimal solutions straight out. We may learn much along the way, and build up a good set of alternatives.

How should we proceed? We need a collaborative space for those interested to specify and discuss.

For microtrust, I don't see any reliable way of knowing who ppl trust and who they don't. For instance, I don't trust my bank, but I use them because it is too difficult to transfer all my services to another bank. And, if I did, I know for a fact I would be faced with the same level of bad service I get now. I can think of some major merchants that I dislike, but I still patronize their businesses for the sake of convenience, or because they have what I need and nobody else does. My primary loyalty and trust is, however, price-based. I usually buy the least expensive goods I can find, of equivalent quality. And speaking of quality, raise your hand if you have been the victim of our disposable culture, where products you buy break within a week or two of normal use.

I guess my point is that insofar as commerce goes, when ALL services or products in a sector just plain suck, it is a mistake to assume that the space has the trust of its customers. When just about every major business in the world has been hacked, I can't say as how I've come to trust online commerce. Instead, I have more of a learned helplessness about it. When they all have been hacked, I shrug my shoulders and type in my CC #. I don't spend time finding a trusted commerce partner, because such a thing doesn't exist.

This is a brave new world. The modern definition of trust seems more akin to "you're trustworthy until your not" than "you're emphatically trustworthy, a rockribbed bastion of trust". Mt. Gox was trustworthy until it wasn't. Solyndra was until it wasn't. Enron was until it wasn't. Sharexcoin was until it wasn't. In crypto, the attraction of being able to sneak quietly into the night without a trace is both attractive (for the dishonest) and problematic (for the honest). Crypto simplifies the existing problem of ripping others off. Whereas an MF Global needs political connections to rob someone blind without repercussion, crypto provides this capability with near perfect anonymity, little expense, and absolutely no smear on one's reputation.

I don't know if there is a technological solution to the trust issue, really. But if we could provide a fix, it would likely be profound in its impact.

The first step should be to operationally define what these components are. When you do that, it clarifies what problem is being solved, to the point that it sometimes ceases to be a problem. For instance, the issue of trust is really what rep is about. But what "is" trust? And, is trust the same thing in e-monies as it is in fiat? Another good thing to define would be fiat. Once you define that, you will probably come to the conclusion that the distance between fiat and crypto is almost zero. The two are identical except insofar as who controls the distribution and use of the money. Most ppl in modern economies don't even spend fiat any more. Instead, they spend what can only be called "e-fiat", or electronic money, in the form of plastic cash denominated in a specific country currency.

So, if we can solve the fiat-->crypto access problem - and that is a big problem, in my estimation - the transfer of the common man's finances to crypto seems more of a trivial matter of location: do you want your holdings in crypto cash, or in plastic cash? I guess my question is, how can we accomplish this on our own, without dipping in to the existing fiat systems that are so grotesquely compromised? Perhaps, instead of creating crypto systems and then trying to convince the fiat-accepting merchants to accept it, we should create our own crypto merchants. That would give us some street cred with the fiat merchants, and once they see the utility and popularity of the system, they will want to be cut in on the action. Instead of us going to them, they would be coming to us. That's my ideal scenario. Somewhere between that and the reality is where we will likely end up.

kind regards,
nio