Quote from: DumbFruit on October 30, 2014, 04:44:21 PM

Quote from: rugrats on October 30, 2014, 04:42:53 PM

I have responded to everything you've written...

Here's a good example. I edited out the ad-hominems and left the relevant portion of your post.

You haven't provided evidence that my responses failed to address your points.

Edit: Better example.

My full quote, which I have no problem reposting.
And please, don't start hiding behind ad hominem accusations. You've been patronizing from the start.

Re editing: Just look at the way how you started by suggesting society and charities will emerge to take care of the weaker members of society, and then turn around denying saying so, just because you didn't use the word altruistic. You did that by carefully editing my posts after backing yourself into a corner.
I've specifically quoted what I wanted you to respond to, which you have avoided doing so - and I'm quoting it again below.

Quote from: rugrats on October 30, 2014, 04:42:53 PM

Quote from: DumbFruit on October 30, 2014, 04:41:02 PM

The right way to defend your position is to respond to what I say and point out specifically how my arguments don't address your points. Not repeat yourself over and over again and pretend I haven't addressed anything. It's reminiscent of a child throwing a temper tantrum and just repeating what he wants over and over.

Why are you afraid to quote me in full?
I have responded to everything you've written, and have not once cowardly edited out your quote.
It's simple really.

Quote from: rugrats on October 30, 2014, 04:07:55 PM

Rather than repeat my self, I'll just repost a few of my earlier posts which you chose to ignore. Respond to this with empirical data instead of rhetorics. I know all of your talking points; I've heard it all before. I even have a copy of the talking points prepared by Americans for Prosperity three years ago for Tea Party and paleolibertarian operatives, where words like theft and murder were highlight in bold. What I haven't seen/heard/read is, evidence that support these talking points. I sometimes laugh when people tell me they want a smaller government, but don't even know the size of the government. The first thing they always zoom in is on welfare for the needy, despite the fact that it constitutes less than 0.1% of the budget. They are just so eager to start slashing off the evil gubmen, as if there is some magic pill, a single, cure-all panacea for a series of complex issues (fyi, bashing the inefficiencies of the federal government is not evidence that income taxes should be abolished.) Anyway, here they are.

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Altruism should mean that all of the 400,000 orphans that society as a whole do not want would be adopted by families annually - now.

Since the dawn of time, has this ever happened before? Has societies, collectively, voluntarily decide to adopt every orphan, provide assistance to single mothers, and care for their old, sick and handicapped? No, it hasn't - other than a few truly altruistic individuals, society has largely turned a blind eye to the plight of others.

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When exactly will these mythical altruistic people emerge? By your own words, they won't suddenly emerge if we abolish taxation. I've also clearly addressed that altruism and altruistic people do not set conditions before helping people. Yet you're going back to the same argument - altruism is absent because " they expect the government to take care of it."

Why? That's not altruism, which is the central core of your argument. Nevertheless, I'll bite, once again.

When former President Bush enacted his massive tax cuts in 2001 (effectively the largest since the Hoover days), the federal government lost about $6.6 trillion in revenue over an 11-year period. By your logic, shouldn't these extra income also resulted in an explosion of charitable contributions during the time? It didn't though. Despite being flushed with cash, there were no significant increase in charitable contributions from individuals and corporations over the last decade.

You know where the money went? Stock market and monetary instruments speculations, including subprime mortgage bundles which ultimately led to the worst American economic crisis in 80 years. And yet, self-professed paleolibertarians keep on insisting that if we abolish taxes and cripple the government, people will magically start being altruistic. I've asked this question before, even to Justin Amash. No one has been able to give a proper answer beyond rhetorics and quoting Hayek, Rothbard, Rockwell, Mises or Bastiat.

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Are you for or against anti-trust laws? And how does it relate to Rockefeller's altruism? Let's make it more current though. Look at Bill Gates. As of now, he is the biggest philanthropist in the history world. In a few decades, his Foundation's continued activity will also elevate him above Rockefeller, after inflation adjustment. I doubt there have been many Americans, if at all, who have paid more taxes than Gates. But like Rockefeller, he plans to give out all of his wealth to charity. That's altruism. And fyi, he works alongside governments of various nations - now.

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You say this as if a significant form of anarchist government has ever existed; as if there have been occasions in history where fully functional anarchist geo states or communities exist; as if humans are not communal, social creatures that will naturally create a form of government. From the dawn of time, some form of government have always existed. This is an undeniable fact. From patriarchy and other forms of social hierarchy-based leadership, to tribalism, feudalism, warlords, aristocracy, monarcy (hereditary and later, divinely inspired), theocracy, democracy, republicanism, oligarchy, sultanate, caliphate, parliamentary monarchy, communism, socialism, Maoism - I could go on.

After trials and errors stretching several millennia, democracy, regardless of its form, has proven to be the most stable, productive and compassionate form of government. And we're supposed to throw all this away based on some theory and philosophy that has never been able to withstand scrutiny, never mind produce empirical evidence to substantiate its assertions?

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Regardless, whatever do you mean by "The beauty of capitalism is that it doesn't require people to be altruistic in order to do tremendous good for the poor."? Don't you still require your "altruistic people" to help the weaker members of society?

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We exist in a free market economy right now. What's stopping the emergence of such charities right now?

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The government is you, me and other people like us. They are not some alien beings or members Alex Jones' ruling 20 families. Fix the government, from outside or inside. Don't let organizations like ALEC write bills for your Congressmen. Pressure your Congressmen to repeal acts like Citizens United which allows companies to secretly fund political campaigns. Despise the war? Make it known, like the Flower Generation. They achieved results, despite the almost universal ridicule they received.

And, in response to your aim of cutting welfare spending to zero and possessing "tremendous sympathy",

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If you have heard a grown man crying because he can't feed his hungry child, then you wouldn't be so cavalier about cutting off aid to them.
If you have spent time with orphans, you would be filled with fear at the thought of them left unprotected, uneducated and unfed, and you wouldn't be so eager to stop money going to orphanages.
If you have spent time with an old woman left on the streets by her children, then you wouldn't begrudge the money spent giving them shelter and feeding, and you wouldn't be callously insisting we should stop paying taxes.
There is absolutely no justification at all to stop aiding people in need. None.

Please, don't repeat your opinions or talking points again. Let's move this discussion forward instead of going round in circles.

ps: Read the Declaration of Independence again. This time, instead of focusing of specific words that you think supports your theories, focus on the message behind the entire declaration. Once you've done so, then you may once again condescendingly ask me to read the same document.

pps:

Quote from: DumbFruit on October 30, 2014, 02:19:22 PM

None? How about stopping theft? How about if the agencies responsible arent actually doing their job? What if there is a better way of providing for them? What if the same entity that is suppose to be helping these people is simultaneously starving woman and children to death due to trade sanctions? What if that same entity is outright killing innocent people by the tens of thousands, calling it collateral damage?

Then fix it, as I've said twice before, instead of trying to replace everything with a logic-defying theory that cannot even stand scrutiny. And I literally spill cigarette ash on my keyboard reading your Somalia example.