Quote from: Red

It now seems this universal dividend concept is just a proposed solution to "the bootstrap problem".

Meaning, we want a new currency to exist, but it can't exist until we distribute some amount of it.
If we create and distribute this amount of currency out of thin air now, "to be fair" to people who come later, we must continue to create X() amount of currency from thin air forever.

Is that the only problem you are trying to solve?

Or are you saying, the EU should be paying a universal dividend every year, because they created a new Euros out of thin air and "to be fair" they should/must continue to do so?

I say ANY Money System that is not symtricly created in space and time is a ponzi scheme. That's what I say. Money is an universal (Global - Common) tool for exchanging goods. We cannot create-il in an assymetric way, that is to say from any center point in Time-Space (considering the Time-space of the money system itself, not the whole one).

As a COMMON tool, it is all members ownership.

It's a spacial Ponzi shcheme if it's created in a particular space point, and it's a time ponzi scheme if it's created in particular time points. It's a time-space ponzi scheme when it's created on particular space spoints and date points (like is the official money = a time-space pyramid ponzi scheme).

(Time-Space is not a pyramid. Time-Space is a 4-Dimensionnal Sphere with no particular point of view in front of physics laws, with hubble constant rate of inflation)

Value is not the same from an individual point of view, neither from a date point of view because this is individual choice. But Money as a COMMON tool has to be created without any particular point of view, as space is

BitCoin is 100% ok considering the space perspective, and not ok considering the time pespective as its initial money system works. BitCoins appears with correct analysys as a time Pyramid Ponzi Scheme (and not a time-space one like official money).

Quote from: Red

Is that your philosophy? Is there ever an amount of money or commodity I could give to "society" where they would say "Thanks! you don't owe us anything now. Everything you earn now is guilt free!"

Logic, Science, Physics, Mathematics, fair rules games to enjoy, and changing the rules when we discover a not-fair effect, that's my philosophy.

I don't want people organising Ponzi Scheme, this kind of things breaks relationship between the players for bad reasons, create wars, revolutions, blood and fears.

Quote from: Red

When you speak of work that benefits society but is otherwise not directly uncompensated you seem to know its value in total (5%/yr), but deny that anyone can fairly put a value on any of the composite parts.

For example, say I enjoy writing Vogon poetry. There is no current market for Vogon poetry because everyone knows that reading Vogon poetry akin to torture. But that doesn't matter. I'm contributing to society anyway by writing Vogon poetry. You can make no judgement as to what value future generations might place on reading Vogon poetry. Who knows? After all who could have predicted people gullible enough to listen to trance music.

But you decide I'm entitle to payment now, on speculation that it might benefit society in the future. Is this your logic for everyone receiving a share of new money?

It's just one way between lots of possibilities to understand what is Universal Dividend. You can also see it as :

* A little part of Global transmission to next generation to complete individual transmission.

* Considering the only universal and fundamental node of any economy is the human beings.

* Millions of individual investments made by all on each individuals, with risk as low as possible because of the large number. So if some don't provide the expected "return" on all future times (who will juge this ?), the others success will compensate the investment.

* The global economy zone as a big enterprise owned by individual shareholders, who receive so a yearly dividend.

* Fair Money System

* Want to live in society and be able to exchange with all members without lack of money and central control.

etc...

Lot of possibilities to see it. All are ok for me. I just remark each individual accept better one or other, so I adapt when explaining it.

My vision is a space-time one, which is not easy to see if you didn't study Relativity, so it's often necessary to translate it in each individual global paradigm.