Quote from: tvbcof on November 12, 2014, 05:07:16 PM

Quote from: BADecker on November 12, 2014, 04:00:36 PM

Small "l" libertarianism, the REAL libertarianism, simply stated is similar to the Golden Rule. At its core, libertarianism is, "harm nobody, don't damage his property, and fulfill all your agreements." In all else there is freedom.

Then by that token, small "S" socialism is the recognition that through cooperation in building and maintaining social structures a better quality of life in society can be achieved relative to a more free-for-all commonly associated with libertarianism. That was the sole basis upon which I was once willing to call myself a 'socialist'. Yes, it does indicate some level of transfer of wealth, and yes I was (and still am) a proponent of that for technical reasons I won't get into right now.

What happened is that we got Socialism in almost all societies, and most assuredly here in the 'Land of the Free.' Big time. It grew under a framework of corruption because the corrupt siphon off value flows. That is the engine which drives it, and I'm wondering (with horror) if it is the ONLY engine which can.

My big problem is that there is no end-game but totalitarianism with the Socialism we've cultivated in the West (and, frankely, everywhere else in the world through the ages.) Here there is no other end-game that I can realistically see. Much safer and to just have Anarchy and build upward into a better state than to try to ratchet downward from modern Socialism into one which is a dubious proposition at best. I believe that this would likely happen fairly quickly because Anarchy (or even genuine Libertarianism) would be so awful for so many people.

Quote from: BADecker on November 12, 2014, 04:00:36 PM

God made the world as big as it is so that people can be free without encroaching on someone else. Get out of the big cities.

Being an atheist I don't buy that suggestion in it's presented form. Being science minded (and logical) I see mathematical flaws here. Being observant, I agree with you. We are not at the point where carrying capacity for humans is threatened and we are not in immediate danger of that...that suggestion is a scare tactic used by the 'sustainable' crowd and often enough under the direction of those who have subverted Socialism for personal gain...see above.

I would allow for the possibility that we are not in danger due to the eugenics programs of these folks over the years however...that is a subject I'm exploring at this time...

Also not being a religious person I do not buy the religious suggestion that it is some sort of a spiritual duty to let nature be untouched by man. As practical and (I believe) ethical person I think we should not totally fuck things up for no reason and show a little bit of thoughtfulness, but we should not flagellate ourselves for some spiritual-esque nonsense about environmentalism either.

Big "S" Socialism happens when small "s" socialists (community minded people) place so much trust in their socialist leaders that they don't even recognize when those socialist leaders become Socialist leaders. Big "S" Socialism isn't really socialism. Neither is big "L" Libertarianism really libertarianism. Both of them are something like dictatorships, fascism, capitalism, or some combination of these, and maybe something else altogether.

The fact that we have and recognize our personal identities, and the fact that we don't know enough to truly prove or disprove God, shows that we are religiously minded. Thus, atheism is simply another religion. It falls into the class of religions that suggest man is god/God, and should really be spelled "Atheism."