Quote from: brg444 on November 13, 2014, 04:46:54 AM

Quote from: cypherdoc on November 13, 2014, 04:38:28 AM

Quote from: brg444 on November 13, 2014, 04:11:48 AM

Quote from: cypherdoc on November 13, 2014, 03:57:11 AM

Quote from: brg444 on November 13, 2014, 03:37:54 AM

Quote from: cypherdoc on November 13, 2014, 03:33:16 AM

in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping. he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk. he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted

as contentious as our debates got, you have helped me crystalize my understanding of how SC's are going to play out. i totally agree that the best use of SC's for Bitcoin are as development tools for your "utility" chains as you call them. the only problem with that is they will only be applied and developed for those specific uses that help Bitcoin as Money. and as you have said, this will probably only include those related to fast tx and anonymity and those will be the only SC's that garner BTC use and MM. but that is very limited and highly focused. they will be devved out of the public good as that will increase Bitcoin value even while not paying devs directly.

but that won't stop all the thousands, if not billions, of "companies" that will bolt onto the MC via the 2wp in an attempt to suck out BTC value. i no longer conceptualize SC's as blockchains or ledgers running parallel alongside Bitcoin's blockchain. i think of them as circles (for profit companies) with small unique ledgers within them that will have just as many different rules and manipulations that go on in fiat companies. think of the TC diagram. and they all will advertise with over-the-top claims to fame just like TC. whether or not BTC holders can resist speculating in these companies should require exceptional diligence but i don't for a minute believe ppl will be able to resist.

in that sense i still don't think SC's are a good idea in that those highly focused utilities should be able to be developed on MC.

I think what you tend to forget is open source democratizes that process and bad actors will get weeded out.

that's quite possible but you yourself said the current altcoin problem is getting worse (?) i think it's slowly getting better but if we go with your opinion then its quite clear that bad actors aren't getting weeded out. as Melbustus quoted before, Poelstra and all of us have been more than surprised.

Quote

Can you present an example of such companies that will attach to the mainchain and how they would go about devaluing the units locked into their sidechain?

i think the #'s and types of these for profit are only limited by your imagination. as long as there are dishonest ppl in the world there will be companies that will attempt to attract Bitcoiners. i think ALL the current altcoins will transform themselves into SC's and play the "decentralized exchange" card and the "Bitshares, CP, Ethereum all wrapped into one" card. or "Bitcoin 2.0-Sidechain Enabled".

Quote

I'm sorry but TC is a pathetic example and an obvious scam that will attract so much suckers before it gets exposed.

ordinary follow on adopters of Bitcoin and even current Bitcoiners love to speculate. TC/SC Enabled Prediction Markets actually sound pretty good! i might even want to try it out. even if it tries a little inflation of Cashcoin or whatnot, if it enables features that can't be found in Bitcoin proper, then it will attract Bitcoiners who aren't too bothered with that.

ppl think differently and have different opinions. i think it's important we recognize and accept this.

Of course but no matter the wants or need of people, open source will allow for whatever option that fills that niche in the most legitimate way to win over the userbase in the long run.

I understand your concerns but at the end of the day my bet is the value created will far outweight the negatives.

and therein lies the problem. what is the definition of "legitimate"? this is the same question i asked 50 pgs back, what is the "truth"?

as i've grown older, i've realized it's simply a matter of "opinion". sad but true. look at sad Obama. he says "are you with us or against us?" as if that the answer to that question is a legitimate measure of one's ~~loyalty~~ dedication to freedom. i hope you get what i mean.

it's quite possible you end up right as it's open source. we'll just have to agree to disagree.