Quote from: contagion on December 18, 2014, 11:36:15 AM

Is God an idea that preys on our Existential Fear?

When belief systems are highly personal and diverse, they aren't dangerous movements. When they become commoditized, such as how the Roman emperor Constantine co-opted Christianity in order to raid the money of the popular movement, they are methods of mass mind control.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds

Quote from: contagion on December 19, 2014, 12:40:48 AM

As a person who was formerly interested in some of the astute logic of the Bible such as Matthew 7 where Jesus explains that judging is mutually destructive, i.e. teaching the value of mutual love and respect, I am coming to the realization that the logical basis for the Bible is archaic.

Wouldn't a God want to liberate us from our fear, not sustain our fear as a means of control?

So the Bible claims we have nothing to fear if we fear God and all humans follow the 10 Commandments, but not only does the Bible also admit that humans can't all follow the unrealistic 10 Commandments ("we are born sinners" and "we are filthy rags") but it even says we won't know our fate until after we die and our heart (and actions) are judged at the narrow gate. This unattainable perfection is the clever psychological ploy analogous to Lotto. Something you strive for but almost never achieve.

The 10 Commandments are about needing to trust each other, e.g. that your neighbor won't covet your wife. But we are now inventing technologies that enable us to trust the untrusted.

Perhaps the entire logical basis of the Bible seems to become irrelevant? Humans need to be empowered as individuals, not corralled into collective dependence. In this way, knowledge can be maximized.

The Bible's solution to fraud is to tell you to let the thief keep it and to expect your wealth to grow wings and fly away. It tells us to seek not wealth but faith. But if our wealth is stored in knowledge as I visualize for the coming knowledge age, then it can't be stolen and knowledge is less nebulous than (analogous to Lotto) faith. If everyone seeks faith and not wealth through knowledge, then production ceases. The Bible tells us not to worry about what we will eat, for if God can feed the birds then surely we will be given food. It tells us to walk with nothing from town to town and rely on the generosity of strangers, but if all strangers become faithful and everyone is walking with nothing, then who will produce?

Quote from: contagion on December 19, 2014, 12:51:35 AM

Quote from: cakebet on December 19, 2014, 12:44:56 AM

How did this devolve into a discussion about religion? ... This reminds me of my last Civ5 game and how ideology/faith points had no impact on my happiness, gold, resource, or productivity levels.

Because government and religion are synonymous with collective dependence, psychological control, and thus enabling corruption by those are handed the power by these collectivized paradigms.

Summarizing my prior post upthread, the Bible and the government are both centralized paradigms, where the collective depends on each other. We need decentralized paradigms where the individual is empowered.

Gold is not a decentralized paradigm.

Quote from: contagion in private msg

But this competition of ideas is important. I for a long-time was caught up in Christianity because I am idealistic and I want to find truth. But at last after a long years of quiet reflection, I am revealing the inconsistencies and archaic attributes of it that I discovered.

If that means you think I am a heretic or gone mad, then I have to respect your belief system. A competition of ideas is good. The correct ideas win and humanity prospers for it.

My understanding of the Universe is there is no such thing as a unified reality. Thus belief systems are valid on a personal basis. We have no way to falsify a unified reality on a universal scale, i.e. omnipresence doesn't exist (unless there is a God that sits outside the Universe and note the Universe has no edge, c.f. my "The Universe" essay).

Quote from: contagion on December 19, 2014, 05:03:17 AM

Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 04:18:36 AM

This is part of the equation. It isn't all. There are the reasons why God allows people to live. One of the big parts is so that they have time to convert to Christianity and be saved.

Saved from what? From punishment for being the imperfect humans that God created in the first place? Reminds me of torturing doodle bugs by creating a world in a Coke bottle experiment where they were outnumbered by fire ants.

Surely God knows that good can't be discerned without evil, just as light can't be seen without dark as contrast.

But there is something deeper going on here. If any entity creates a system of entropy, then that entity can not control it ALL OF IT, precisely because if there is a top-down controller, then all the entropy is destroyed because it is all deterministic (dependent on external control).

Thus God isn't doing any individualized punishing, sorry. Impossible. Either we exist or we don't and the serendipity (entropy) exists or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways. If God is meddling, then the Universe ceases to exist and he is all alone again. A God could be observing and then do a reset and destroy or reduce the entropy of our Universe to start over. A God could exert partial control, and leave some of the entropy to be free. But by doing this continually over time, the God's preference for certain outcomes would destroy all the entropy just the same and the Universe would be just a mirror of God. So what was the point of such a game? The God is alone all again with an exact or subset copy of himself.

Even if our soul was moved outside this Universe upon death, then it could not have any communication channel to this Universe, otherwise the entropy of this Universe would collapse. So what is the point if we have no connection to the being we were here in this Universe?

Sorry top-down systems don't sustain (and God must be eternal right?). They are temporary or partial Coasian barriers, lest existence doesn't exist.

My blog essays "The Universe" and "Information Is Alive!" provide more background.

P.S. we have a conscience because evil is a high risk activity, because it turns many forces against you. The best are technological advances which make it impossible to do evil, e.g. the decentralized block chain makes it impossible to direct debasement to corruption, the end-to-end principle puts the smarts at the edge of the network, so the intermediaries have no control, etc..

Quote from: contagion on December 19, 2014, 06:35:33 AM

Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 05:42:12 AM

One rule; one law; one order; don't eat the one fruit. Eat all the rest. Don't eat that one. Honor God by obeying that one rule. After all, honoring God, and thereby glorifying Him, is what man was created for.

People couldn't leave well enough alone back then, and they haven't ever since.

The result is entropy. There was no entropy before that. Man brought the entropy.

Exactly. One boring nirvana with no diversity and very lonely.

Either God can't meddle or he will end up all alone again.

Sorry there is no mathematical way around this.

Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 05:42:12 AM

The answer to this isn't something that can easily be said in a handful of words. But "saved" is saved from our own self-destruction.

If we do evil, we increase our risk greatly of being destroyed within this life.

But the real issue here is the assertion of an after life and the claim that a God can punish us for eternity with fire, brimstone, repetitive disembowelment, and gnashing of teeth for eternity.

I do not see mathematically that assertion can be true. If there is any meaningful feedback loop between our Universe and the after life, then the entropy of our Universe collapses to the perfect will of God, meaning a copy of him and the loss of diversity.

On several levels, it appears to be story crafted from existential fear of darkness of night (can't grow crops without the sun) that morphed into a mechanism for mass mind control via propagation of fear of an after life that can't be falsified and doesn't make any sense from an entropic analysis.

I too fell into this psychological trap of believing Christianity because of my idealism and desire to belief in an order that protects good from evil. But my understanding has become refined and more astute (I believe although I am willing to entertain counter logic that is worthy).

The rebuttal is of course that to prove your faith it can't be certain, otherwise there would be no value to be faithful. I break down that logic in terms of the definition of love and mutual respect.

Quote from: contagion on December 19, 2014, 06:57:52 AM

Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 06:39:17 AM

Quote from: contagion on December 19, 2014, 06:35:33 AM

Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 05:42:12 AM

One rule; one law; one order; don't eat the one fruit. Eat all the rest. Don't eat that one. Honor God by obeying that one rule. After all, honoring God, and thereby glorifying Him, is what man was created for.

People couldn't leave well enough alone back then, and they haven't ever since.

The result is entropy. There was no entropy before that. Man brought the entropy.

Exactly. One boring nirvana with no diversity and very lonely.

Either God can't meddle or he will end up all alone again.

Sorry there is no mathematical way around this.

You don't understand what you are talking about. The people who live with God will have joys that are as diverse as necessary to please them.

You are missing the point that either they are perfect and thus a copy of God, or they are imperfect and thus God's will was not applied.

If you are speaking about the joys they have in this Universe while they are still imperfect, yeah they rejoice in thinking they are the few ones what won't be perpetually burned with fire. Yet they forget, no such promise was made to them. We are not allowed to judge ourselves and must wait for the narrow gate ex post facto to receive our fate.

There is no way a promise could be made, because it would be impossible to define. Because no human is perfect, so there would have to some sort of way to describe the infinite ways a human's life was and which of those infinite ways is acceptable to enter heaven. In short, it is nonsense.

Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 06:39:17 AM

They will glorify God for His great goodness, and He will glorify them for their recognition of Him. Very un-boring.

Exact copies of each other so nothing changes, nothing is alive, and nothing exists. Read my exposition of this in my blog essay, "Information Is Alive".

Good is not discernible if there is no contrast of evil. If everyone is equally good, then they are the same. A uniform distribution is the equivalent of no contrast, i.e. non-existence.

I am not advocating evil, rather I am saying that what some people call evil, is rather just diversity and disagreement. For example, did Albert Einstein cause the horrific deaths at Hiroshima? He knew his invention would eventually be used to kill, but he created it any way. Because to not create is to be dead.

Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 06:39:17 AM

Continue with your choice.

You rejoice in superiority. Such a redeeming quality. Yet you forget, you've not been made such a promise.

P.S. I added to my prior post since you replied.

Quote from: contagion on December 19, 2014, 07:20:55 AM

Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 07:09:55 AM

Quote from: contagion on December 19, 2014, 06:57:52 AM

If you are speaking about the joys they have in this Universe while they are still imperfect, yeah they rejoice in thinking they are the few ones what won't be perpetually burned with fire. Yet they forget, no such promise was made to them. We are not allowed to judge ourselves and must wait for the narrow gate ex post facto to receive our fate.

Was speaking about the joys of Heaven. Isn't the hereafter the thing you were talking about?

But you've not been made such a definitive promise. So why are you so happy about what you are not assured to receive? (Not to mention that nobody has every verified the promise is not a fable).

It is probably because you don't want your idealism to die. This probably inspires you to act ethically in this life. That was my reason for following Christianity for a while. But it reached a breaking point for me recently when someone told me most people will face Tribulations in 2019. I couldn't reconcile how a religion could make people feel so hopeless. I'd rather keep trying to help the world (in spite of dark clouds looming on the horizon of potential global collapse and maybe even a global pandemic, etc thus appearing like a Tribulation such as the Black Death that killed 60% of Europe's population), than hunker down into a binary mode of either delusion of my assurance or fear of my impending doom. I realized this religion weapon of mass delusion is all about spreading fear and false pride. When religion changed from love to fear and doom, I realized I was in the wrong place and I started to think about it logically. Should I really live in fear or false pride? I thought it over and I articulated these inconsistencies which have been fomenting in my mind and writings for some years now.

But I am still idealistic. I believe we can work for ethical technological innovation. So what is the difference in our motivation? I believe I must act proactively, whereas you likely believe it is sufficient to conform for as long as you don't do what you regard to be evil.

Yet collective religion and the religious have done evil too.

I don't see a difference.

Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 07:09:55 AM

Quote from: contagion on December 19, 2014, 06:57:52 AM

Exact copies of each other so nothing changes, nothing is alive, and nothing exists. Read my exposition of this in my blog essay, "Information Is Alive".

You seem to want to limit God. Math is a language of man, not of God.

If God can't talk to me in a language and logic I can appreciate, then what is the point?

If I just blindly and illogically accept delusion that suits me, then what sort of creature am I?

Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 07:17:03 AM

There is the whole problem of mankind. We fall into the trap of believing that we can out-think God. It all starts questioning whether or not God even exists.

If I can't discern anything, then why not be a Muslim or Buddhist instead?

You are telling me that Christians shouldn't think.

I don't want to disrespect your beliefs. Belief systems are a personal matter, because I understand diversity of thought is essential to existence as I explained in my seminal essay "Information Is Alive!":

http://unheresy.com/Information%20Is%20Alive.html#Algorithm_!=_Entropy

First of all, I have come to understand that all religions originated from whorship of the Sun, and you can see that the story of Jesus is just a nearly exact re-enactment of the story of the Sun God Horus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD9f0XU_S78

Horus, Eqypt 3000 B.C.[1]
* Born Dec. 25
* Mother was a virgin
* Star in East
* Adorned by 3 kings
* Teacher at age 12
* Baptized/Ministry at age 30
* 12 disciples

Secondly, AFAICS you have not addressed the inconsistency I wrote about. I question your IQ if you haven't even recognized that you did not address my point. We are told to follow the rules, but we are also told else where that we can't judge who is worthy and this judgement is reserved for at the narrow gate upon on death from this world. Yet in the scriptures Jesus preached love, tolerance, mutual respect, and the scripture explains we are to have a circumcised heart meaning that we will be judged by our love as expressed through faith. Yet if we can't know for sure that we are worthy and thus mutually loved until we are judged at the narrow gate, thus this violates the very principle of love and faith, which is to assure us about our Existential Fear (see the so named section of my linked essay above).

The Bible is erudite in wisdom given the collective experience of mankind that preceded it.

I am not a person who haphazardly or flippantly argues inconsistencies in the Bible. For example, I have explained to those who say God ordered the killing of women and children in 1 Samuel 15, that God warned and gave the opportunity to avert this outcome in 1 Samuel 8, but the people forsaked him, his laws, and chose an earthly king, laws, and government instead. I have explained extensively in my writings how the people's myopia about government and collectivism is what leads to catastrophic economic failure, which I have recently explained is globally unavoidable from 2016 forward.

I remember debating with you in the past Jason Hommel forum about whether the Romans scripture to obey the government was in conflict with the direct order from the Lord in 1 Samuel 8 to not form a government (a.k.a. king). You seem to have a strong desire for absolute order and governance, whereas I prefer diversity of thought. I don't believe a God would create all this diversity only to squelch it in some set of unrealistic laws. Even the scripture says we are filthy rags and born sinners. Even Jesus spent his time with the sinners because he said that was where the most work could be done. You see that exactly fits with my mathematical understanding of the importance of diversity, which I elucidated in my seminal essays including the following ones:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.0
http://unheresy.com/The%20Universe.html#Edge_of_the_universe

Here is a music video which I exemplifies to some limited extent humanity in 2014 and the diversity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC0rffyn4_I
[Depeche Mode - Just can't get enough - Paolo Monti MEGA MASHUP 2014]

You will probably view that video as sinners who are focused on worldly issues and not focused in fear of God and Biblical laws. And many would see you as a kill-joy, curmudgeon.

In spite of my tendency as a Cancer zodiac to want to control those things that impact my emotions, yet when I am not sulking, I want to celebrate the human spirit. Freddie Mercury embodies my gregarious alter-ego (when I am not sulking) as exemplified in the following music videos. I remember the varied experiences of my life such as the one date with a boobastistic Puerto Rican girl who took me to a gay bar in New Orleans in 1993 before I took off to Philippines which became the fork of my life I been on ever since.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRt2jX1kaYo
[Queen - somebody to love]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXlA6m2qrM
[Freddie Mercury last vocal interview before dying]

The following interview exemplifies that the only reason we know we exist (i.e. don't feel lonely, depressed, and useless) is because of the other humans who register in our feelings and creative mind, which is congruent with the logic and math in my seminal essays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBm1Qfpa_nY
[Brian May to RT: I still feel Freddie's around]

My analysis of you psychologically is you seem to derive your sense of existence, purpose, and meaning from viewing most of humanity as worthless, due for gnashing of teeth, suffering, and brimstone. You probably rationalize this as you are warning and offering people the path to avoid the worst.

I know intimately horrific pain. I suffered in ER then ICU for 3 days of uninterrupted fire burning inside without pain medication due to an acute peptic ulcer that had burst and was excreting acid into my abdomen and causing my internal organs to bleed. I can't entirely remember the feeling now, because it was so horrific, I wished at times I could die. The knowledge of the feeling was still palpable after I was released from ER.

So most of all us don't consider the question of what if we can't even die and the pain of hell must be sustained for eternity. If I had to endure for eternity that horrific, excruciating, DISEMBOWELLING pain I felt for only 3 days, I don't think there are words to describe how horrific this would be.

If there a God and a narrow gate, and we are judged based on the worst of our actions in this life, I am surely going to hell for eternity. I would have no hope in that case, so why even try? Just like Freddie Mercury, it is impossible to go through life sucking up all the diverse experiences without making mistakes. I didn't intend to make mistakes. I was hoping to create a happy life, and still hoping to. No risk, nothing ventured, then nothing ever existed, so we were never alive. Without evil, there is no discernible good. Without dark, there is no discernible light. Contrast is necessary in order to appreciate the existence of any aspect of diversity.

Thus I have formed the logic that if I were to subscribe to your perspective, the diversity of life wouldn't exist. It seems to be so counter to what a God would want in order to maximize (the diversity of and thus) his creation.

Sorry I have not been able to find any logical support for absolutism. But if it works for you, that is your personal belief system. The universe may have infinite realities, so we can each have the one that fits us. My sulking alter-ego thinks I need to have some control, thus those who didn't like the control in my reality, would be antagonists to my reality. Yet when I pursue my Freddie Mercury alter-ego, I can be congruent with more of humanity. Hmmm...

Thank you for sharing with me. I respect your beliefs and the effort and perspective that is important to you.

God bless.

P.S. Your prediction about silver was no great feat. I publicly predicted on marketoracle the exact $48 top in silver the year before it occurred. Armstrong predicted it decades before you did. I more logically inclined to believe the world will continue undergoing cycles indefinitely. I am not saying that you are incorrect, because nothing you write about is falsifiable until after the fact. And even then you might be able to argue that global economic implosion has been the Tribulation. If I survive, you may argue I took the mark of the beast or that I was worthy. I don't see how we can falsify these matters precisely. And that is the way it should be, because reality is relative and never absolute as I explained mathematically and meta-physically in my essay "The Universe".

> The Bible has no inconsistency on this subject. In the very scripture
> where we are told to circumcise our hearts we are also told to "follow the
> rules".
>
>
> Deuteronomy 10:12-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
>
> 12 And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to
> fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve
> the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to
> keep the commandments of the Lord and His statutes which I command you
> today for your good? 14 Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to
> the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it. 15 The Lord
> delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their
> descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. 16
> Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no
> longer.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: contagion
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 5:56 AM
>
> I believe part of faith is accepting that only God can know whose heart is
> circumcised.
>
> But love should be mutual. Thus one should feel through their faith some
> calm and assurance.
>
> I can't rectify this inconsistency in the Bible.
>
> Circumcision of the heart is not about following the rules, but it is
> about faith and love of God. Even following the rules won't get us through
> the narrow gate.
>
> http://www.gotquestions.org/circumcision-of-the-heart.html
>
>
>> The woman you speak of is the righteous and blameless (those who keep
>> the old testament Law with a circumcised heart) in Revelation 12.
>>
>> Only they are taken to a safe place just like Noah who was righteous
>> and just like Abraham who faithfully kept the Law, Genesis 26.
>>
>> Revelation 12 says the rest of her offspring are left outside and they
>> face great persecution to see if they will give in to the Beast and
>> his system or keep the old testament Law with a circumcised heart,
>> finally.
>>
>> Those who say they are followers but do not keep the Law are left
>> outside.
>> They are the unwise virgins. They are outside the protection of the
>> wilderness.
>>
>> I don't predict the time, I declare it based on what has been given to
>> me.
>>
>> It is sort of how I was able a few years ago to "predict" silver going
>> to the $15 area when no one else could.
>>
>> If you knew the prophecies, you could add them up starting at
>> September 23, 2015 go 1260 days and know that Armstrong is dead on
>> regarding 2019 as that is when the Great Tribulation starts, the 1260
>> days (about 30 days after the Abomination of Desolation). Armstrong
>> is almost dead on but using mere data to predict without knowledge of
>> the scriptures.
>>
>> The day sequence of the prophecies is 1260+30+1260+45. You can add
>> those numbers on a spreadsheet to 9/23/2015 and know when things are
>> going to happen.
>>
>> But knowing when these things are going to happen does not do anyone
>> any good at all unless they decide to choose to live righteousness and
>> keep the old testament Law with a circumcised heart. That is far more
>> solid and dependable than the laws of physics.

Quote from: contagion on December 16, 2014, 08:34:52 AM

Quote from: Wilikon on December 13, 2014, 04:42:49 PM

The end times are upon us...

What I wrote in email today... (hey don't assume you know if I am Christian or not...I may just be speaking from their perspective playing devil's advocate...but you will not know as I might be a Christian...)

> You are correct, the masses cannot be saved as they have chosen the false
> gods of Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Hindu, Buddha, or just plain
> old no god at all but faith in man (humanism)... It is exactly as Messiah
> said, it is just like the days of Noah.
>
> The beginning of the end starts on September 23, 2015. Just prior to that
> is the Shemitah. There is nothing that can change this event.

Doesn't the Bible say that some old lady escapes the beheading the desert?
I think the Bible mentions about some finding safe harbors?

Where are you riding this out?

I saw a dead pigeon in my lawn today (in the Philippines and I never see dead birds here).
I read a new more deadly strain of
bird flu killed several hundred recently. Armstrong says pandemic cycle
should peak again 2019 in a global plague.

No one can predict the time, as the Bible says. The history of the world
has been going through repeated cycles that appear much like the End
Times, e.g. 60% of Europe died in the Black Death.

One thing I learned about life thus far, is those who speak in absolutes
are crackpots. I guess there is a time to be proven wrong, but I don't
think absolutism has ever been correct in the recorded history of the
earth, not even in the Biblical great flood. Noah found safe harbor.

> Matthew 7:13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the
> way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter
> through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to
> life, and there are few who find it.

Forsaking money and body entirely is one route, maybe the only one to fit
through the narrow gate. Recall the parable of the rich man and easier to
fit a camel though the eye of a needle.

God bless guys.

[1] http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/christinegypt.html

Quote

Horus was born on "December 25th" (winter solstice) in a manger.
   He was of royal descent, and his mother was the "virgin Isis-Mery."
   Horus's birth was announced by a star in the East and attended by three "wise men."
   At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized.
   Horus was baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who was decapitated.
   The Egyptian god had 12 companions, helpers or disciples.
   Horus performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised Osiris from the dead.
   The god walked on water.
   Horus was "crucified" between two "thieves."
   He (or Osiris) was buried for three days in a tomb and resurrected.
   Horus/Osiris was also the "Way, the Truth, the Life," "Messiah," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
   Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of the Father. He was called "Holy Child," as well as "the Anointed One," while Osiris was the KRST.
   Horus battled with the "evil one," Set/Seth.
   Horus was to reign for one thousand years.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/19/constantine-saint-or-just-another-political-fraud/

Quote

Later in 321, we end up with Christmas being December 25th for Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the venerable day of the sun, referring to the sun-worship that Aurelian had established as an official cult. This became Christmas since nobody knew the birth date of Christ.