Quote from: contagion on December 19, 2014, 09:04:51 AM

Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 08:39:38 AM

The point? Since you can see that God is right about murder, why would you think He is wrong about the things He says about salvation?

Because logic is my strong suite. I can see that it doesn't take Godly power to predict that murder leads to bad outcomes. That is not predictive of a God. Nearly any one could tell you that even if they never read the Bible.

There is deeper wisdom in the Bible that is more convincing and is what held me for a while, e.g. the Parable of the Talents, Jesus astute point in Mathew 7 about how judging others is mutually destructive, and Jesus's point in Mathew 6:5 about true faith is not showing it to anyone.

But I explained upthread why on balance overall the logic of the Bible fails IMO. It seems to be based on false hope and fear, which are not positive attributes.

Say, I'm not trying to tear you away from what you believe in. Even God doesn't do that. So, why would I?

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Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 08:39:38 AM

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Do you deny the scripture? It says only 144,000 will be saved during the Tribulation. Or if the 144,000 is not literal then the Bible is great ambiguous hogwash subject to any interpretation a person desires.

If you truly think that, you either haven't delved into the Revelation, or else you are just playing with me.

There are lots of strawmen theories we can build by trying to build puzzles out of scriptures. I also know that Jesus explained why he spoke in parables. They try to make it seem like it is prize if you can build a strawmen that fits your desired delusion. The Bible is a cleverly constructed psychological weapon. I even fell for it, because it preys on our weakness.

Do you mean that you haven't figured out why the "Bible is a cleverly constructed psychological weapon" yet? The reason is that the devil placed a bit of himself into us, genetically, at the time the first two people succumbed to his temptations in the Garden. The Bible has to be cleverly constructed, so that it can root out the devil in us while saving us, hopefully.

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Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 08:39:38 AM

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The lady in the desert is saved because she was blameless. Who amongst us is blameless?

The lady in the desert is representative of the true church of God (not the Roman Catholic earthly church). The Child she bore is representative of Jesus. The true church of God IS blameless, because they believe in Jesus. The Revelation has a lot of picturesque language.

I am aware of the abstract descriptions of churches in Revelation and what will happen to each one.

But there is no way to know which church you belong to. The definitions are not precise. Belief in Jesus alone is not sufficient.

To the Church in Philadelphia
7 To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.

Where is the precise definition? Who has kept all his words with their deeds, i.e. who is blameless?

Avoid the bad parts of all the churches. Embrace the good parts of all the churches.

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Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 08:39:38 AM

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Seems to me you like the filipinos where I am, think of all the good things they can get from God, but ignore the harsh realities of the punishment God will mete out to most people.

I don't like pain any more than anyone. I thank God that He has allowed me a reasonably pain-free life so far. God doesn't mete out punishment by desire. He allows it in the circumstances of this life at times. He will do it in the "afterdeath" because that is what those people chose for themselves.

How are you so sure that "those" isn't you?

When you have felt this indescribable pain, you will may suddenly take this question much more seriously and literally.

It is very difficult for a human to walk in another's shoes until they have.

I see you only focus on the great hope and you don't think any of the risk applies to you. That to me is delusion.

If I were absolutely doubt free, then I could be sure. Since I am not, I can only work the best that I can in the ways that will increase my faith, while hoping that God will take care of the rest.

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Quote from: BADecker on December 19, 2014, 08:39:38 AM

Because if it did, I would have to select the pain over missing out on salvation.

Ha. When you feel such pain, I will see if you still say that after some years to reflect on it.

When I first came through the pain, I told myself I had some idea what Hell is, and it reaffirmed my desire to avoid hell.

But now I looked rationally the offer the Bible has given me, and there is no way to know which church I would be in and what outcome would come to me.

What does anyone having pain change in the truth of God and the universe?

The churches listed in the beginning of the Revelation were earthly churches, earthly churches that Jesus chose to be examples of areas where churches can succeed or fail. Be a part of the woman in the desert church, the only church that counts.