Quote from: ycagel on December 29, 2014, 11:09:54 AM

HR,
Just so we are clear. I don't have any personal interest in Ripple, nor do I think their practice is the model example for the industry. I am simply stating that whatever they are doing from a marketing perspective is keeping people engaged. Last thing I want to suggest is that price fixing or insiders controlling the movement and future of a digital currency is something I approve of.

YC

No problem YC. I wasn't thinking of you, nor directing my writing to you. However, since I was using my reply to you as the impetus for my comment, I was afraid you might take it personal in spite of all my best attempts to use an impersonal style, and I have been proven correct on that. Sorry about that. It wasn't directed at you and I should have done better at making it even more impersonal. Such are the failings of message forums. I was clear about what you were saying and nothing in what I said - after "you're right" - was directed directly at you. My interest is in generating a serious debate on what I think is a very key component for success, and not in rebuking anyone in particular, and certainly not you.

Quote from: HR on December 29, 2014, 09:34:25 AM

Quote from: ycagel on December 29, 2014, 01:44:40 AM

The crazy thing is the insiders own like 90% of Ripple and yet the price has continued to move up. Think about this for a second. Ripple creates more shares out of thin air and assigns them to their "banking partners" for virtually nothing. Now the outside public believes real life credibility and use is occurring and they start investing. The "banking partners" are now looking at a goldmine in their hands. Ingenious if you ask me. Bad for the folks investing. Ultimately, I think DGB needs to use some of the marketing techniques and relationship to its advantage.

I would not touch Ripple with a ten foot pole. No control and the insiders can dump anytime they choose and the rest are left holding the bag. Why take a chance?

YC

You're right, and while it looks "ingenious", its actually nothing new, and is only ingenious for frauds and scammers.

It's called price fixing.

In both cases, XPY and XRP developers have massively pre-mined their coins and, as a consequence, have thereafter controlled supply. If you control the supply, then you can fix the price. Saudi Arabia and OPEC have been doing it for over 40 years. The concept should not be new to anyone. Its the main justification for antitrust laws (but they only go so far and have limited jurisdiction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing ). Another example of a market that was dominated by a single player who fixed price was the diamond market and that single player was De Beers.

What all the entities above have in common is a dominant control of the market and the price manipulation that their dominant control affords them. They also represent centralized, closed decision making systems, which means that end users MUST not only PAY THE PRICE, they MUST also PLACE THEIR TRUST in those controlling entities.

Simply stated, this is the antithesis of the digital currency ethic (and free societies/economies for that matter).

XPY and XRP control the number of coins going to market, and they set the price. Those who collude and receive coins for their collusion (exchanges, banks, 3rd party developers, and the like) agree to limit the number of their coins that go to market as well. Again, can you say OPEC?

In a free market economy, the more distributed the market, i.e., the more players there are, the fairer and better it is for end users (consumers) and producers alike. DGB is a good example of a widely distributed open system where price fixing is next to impossible.

The difference is between control and manipulation, and open and decentralized trading. Millions have placed their entire livelihoods at stake defending the latter (and millions more have even given their lives - you know the drill: so we all can live the lives we live today), and anyone justifying the former is only making clear to the world just what kind of moral fiber he or she is made of.

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On a longer term note, what are the chances that short term, highly rigged, scams can succeed? Im not sure, but what I can tell you is that by looking at XPY and XRP infrastructure and judging by the number of product claims that are met with by dead links, I dont think theyve got much of a chance of succeeding anytime soon (but remember, as long as they hold the controlling interest, they will be able to control price, and that creates an illusion of success). Furthermore, from a viability standpoint, how in the world do they ever hope to create a functional payment system when the vast majority of the system's tokens arent even available for use (due to the dominant players control of them)? Nevertheless, these kinds of crooks often end up stumbling across dumb luck, and they make good while their competition, although doing everything right, get the guillotine. This is a terribly frightful place for honest competition to find themselves I would only equate it with being on trial and falsely accused for something you didnt do, and I would suggest that the same, no holds barred, do or die, strategy needs to be employed with the firm conviction and clear understanding that there just might not be a tomorrow for you (and dont come crying to me about life not being fair we all know it isnt from the start).

Quote from: HR on December 28, 2014, 10:25:21 PM

I don't like what I'm seeing out there. First we get a paycoin scam from GAWMiners where they pre-mined 12 million of the 12.5 total projected and are now selling to whoever is dumb enough to buy (at $14 the last I checked).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=895061.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=900970.0

Now there's even a Ripple market on Cryptsy! Another massively pre-mined "payment system" described by one poster as being "fuel that powers a network, a seemingly useless, centralized, closed source, network that no one actually uses..." in the Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=135684;sa=showPosts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_%28payment_protocol%29
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146964.0

Not only do we owe it to ourselves, but we also owe it to everybody else: we must educate the world about what is open source, and what is secure, and what is decentralized, and what is a real life, functioning network. This means debunking the scams, and that means possibly ruffling some feathers, but we have a duty to our fellow humans, don't we? Do we care that unsuspecting victims are being taken. Do we care that our product provides the real thing and is being overlooked? Maybe, maybe not, but one thing's for sure, those behind the business - if only for the business' sake, if only to do the marketing expected of someone who wants to establish their business, if only to become profitable - need to promote the benefits of their product as soon, and as early on, as possible, else they end up failing and saying to themselves "if only we had tried harder to create demand and set ourselves apart when we still had the chance".

DigiByte needs to get aggressive, and fast!