Quote from: Stijn on December 29, 2014, 07:10:58 PM

Quote from: BADecker on December 29, 2014, 05:18:24 PM

The whole basis for this kind of thinking is flawed. The flaw lies in the fact that man is not of the animal kingdom, although people are similar to animals.

God spoke the animals into existence. God didn't make man in this simple fashion. God formed man out of the dust of the ground (chemicals of the earth) and breathed into him the breath of life. Man is different than the animals, though of similar physical structure in many ways.

well, I think the whole basis for that is flawed: there is no evidence that God created man.

You are really good. There isn't even bookwork for it... God creating man, that is. Or do you have some? Bible says He made man out of the material that was available.

Quote

There is plenty of evidence that humans evolved from non-human ancestors, that humans and non-human animals have common ancestors, and that no clear dividing line can be drawn between humans and non-human animals.

Wrong. There is only interpretation of a load of evidence.

Quote

Looking at our ancestors, all intermediates between a human and a chicken once lived. And there is a possibility of human-animal hybrids, chimaeras and genetically modified humanlike beings. In other words; there is no essence related to homo sapiens.

Yet in all this, there are no provable links, where one form changed itself into another. That is interpretaion, wishful thinking, the stuff children's stories are made out of.

Quote

Basing ypu erhics on religious beliefs about creation is very dangerous, because it is very arbitrary to believe in those things and not in other religious beliefs that have the same lack of evidence. Why God and not Krishna, Tohr, Osiris, Quetzal or whatever? Why the Bible and not the Bhagavat Gita or whatever?

Do I have to say the evidence again?

1. There is a machine-like quality to the operation of the universe, in everything from inanimate objects to complex life. Machines have makers. The evidence for this is that man takes all his machine knowledge from the machine "knowledge" already planted in the universe... all of it. Man juggles the knowledge a bit, and comes up with some new forms of complex machinery. Complex machinery is designed by intelligence. Man hasn't come close to catching up to the complexity of the machinery in the universe. Whatever God is, He is there.

2. There is no pure randomness. Everything that we call random or probability is based on our inability to see the causes for some effects. The whole universe operates on cause and effect and always has. Even the quantum math that has been developed, which might suggest that there is pure random out there somewhere, has been designed using cause and effect thinking. The fact that we humans think the way we do - about everything including science and art - has its base in cause and effect, because something caused us to think the way we do. What is the Great First Cause that caused the chain of effects?

3. Science doesn't have a handle on soul, spirit or consciousness. It is only recently that modern science even considers that they might be real. Yet billions of people around the world using soul/spirit/consciousness/mind believe by them that God exists. Sounds like science is out-dating itself almost before it has a chance to really get started.

4. Stand the history of the various religious writings and traditions side by side. Look at them all in detail. The others are all blown away by the strength of the Bible. The history of the Bible, including the validations for it made by the nation of Israel, shows that the Bible can't exist. There are too many "things" in and about the Bible that make it impossible to exist. Yet it exists among hundreds of millions of people all around the world.

Quote

Quote

At first, before there were mistakes made in this world, people were instructed to eat of the plants (except for the fruit of one particular tree, that they were instructed not to eat).

yes, acoording to the story, God made everyone vegan, even lions. But why did he put that particular tree in the middle of the garden of eden? Why did God ask for problems? If he didn't want humans to eat its fruits, why did he make it so tempting and easy for humans?

The mistakes were not in the plan. God thinks in such different ways than we that the mistakes were taken into account, automatically, without even having been though about.

God made man in the image of God so that man could recognize how good and great God is. Man could worship, praise, thank, and glorify God spontaneously. The forbidden fruit was another gift to man, so man could glorify God by obeying Him. This is what man was made for. If done correctly, this is where man would excel.

Quote

Quote

Then later, long after mistakes came into the world (the original perpetual nature of the universe was destroyed), God gave the animals to man for food along with the plants.

which is an odd move of God. Humans did something wrong and therefore God said that they are from then on allowed to harm innocents? Why did he make a vegan world in the first place? Why did God suddenly turned 180°? A bit crazy.

It was not God Who turned. It was man. Part of God's plan always was blessings for man. Among the blessings was freedom of choice.

Man's turning from God was so great that God had it in mind to destroy all mankind. Noah and his family were the only ones who continued to worship God. In the Flood, where God saved Noah and his family, but destroyed the rest of the world, things of the world changed. The world was no longer the healthy place that it had been. Animals were given as food to man because there are times when the kinds of plant life that are suited to man are simply not available in abundance.

This whole thing is not easy to explain.

Quote

Quote

However, after it was shown that man misused the animals in ways that were unfair, God, also, instructed people to use their animals fairly. This would include a quick, painless death for the animals that man is going to consume as food.

and God also said that we should not consume a single drop of blood. Which is impossible unless you're vegetarian.

If a person obeys the whole law of God, yet disobeys in one point, he is guilty of lawlessness = imperfection.

The whole purpose of the law is to benefit man. It isn't a thing to be picky about. The thing to be picky about is the direction in which a person goes in his life... in favor of God, or against Him. Why worry about the little imperfection of eating a few drops of blood, over against the big imperfection of attempting to fight against God?

Quote

Quote

If you don't include the things that God has done with man, you will miss the truth.

well, the Christian God has an incoherent ethic. He is inconsistent. And he does terrible, highly immoral things. He's like the emperor in star wars who said (referring to the genocides he initiated in Jericho and other cities): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmVyUdHtxbU

God's seeming inconsistency is based on the inconsistency of man. God will always help the man who accepts Him, is on His side, believes in the Savior, and proves it by his actions though they are flawed at times. Things are never any other way until people turn against God, and don't turn back. God always helps the people who are sincerely on His side.