I agree and I pointed this out somewhere a while ago. He should have won more than even he thought.

1. That depends on what you mean by "his jackpot winning". He was not paid the jackpot. If you meant a tiny payoff that was nowhere near the full amount then carry on.

2. Agreed but I'm sure he felt that he was in a no-win situation where he could take the payoff or get nothing. I don't think any of us should judge him unless you have been in the same situation.

3. He definitely did not get what he wanted which was the jackpot that he legitimately won. The fact he has posted more recently suggests to me that the payoff has cleared and they cant hold anything against him now to keep him quiet and/or keep up the happy charade they made him play.

4. I don't see him asking for help. It appears to me that he is just trying to warn people about these crooks.

I do agree that Jason has played his cards for better or for worse. Maybe he was too quick to accept the payoff, or maybe he had no other choice. There is nothing he can do now other than to warn people. He's never going to see that jackpot money.

Yes please do. If you do you'll see I was initially skeptical.

In fact reading it back now to my eternal shame I sounded a bit like cjmoles at the time. How embarrassing!  

This ridiculous idea that no-one was playing for the jackpots that were not being won at Bovada is so mind bogglingly wrong that it needs to be set straight.

If no-one was playing for those jackpots (i.e. picking Good or both Good/Bad modes) then their contributions from each wager would not be going to the jackpots and the jackpots would not be increasing, and the graphs would have flat horizontal lines. Playing in "Bad" mode does not make a contribution to the "Good" mode jackpot and vice versa. Playing at a 5c coin size does not contribute to the 10c jackpot and so on. They are all independent. So we know at a minimum that people were playing in both those modes (some at the same time) and at all coin sizes because all the graph lines were heading upwards (and down when they were won).

Players playing in both modes contribute to both jackpots and can choose their jackpot when the bonus round comes. If that is the case then you could reasonably expect them to pick the higher jackpot. If so, as soon as that one is won and it reverts to its seed value, you would expect most players to pick the other jackpot next time as it would now be higher. Thus you should expect to see a reasonably similar distribution of jackpot wins between good and bad at the same casino as the jackpots alternate between being biggest. And that is what we see at Slots.lv. But not at Bovada where several of the jackpots were huge and never won in bad mode compared to good.

Sticking to that theory, if the bad jackpots were much higher you would expect to see the good jackpots rarely won as presumably people would not elect to shoot for them when playing in both modes. Yet people kept winning the good mode jackpots. Perhaps the winners were exclusively playing in good mode despite the bad jackpots being thousands of times bigger. That still doesn't explain why no-one won the bad jackpots. In fact this suggestion makes the evidence all the more damning as the logical conclusion is that more people would have been going for the bad jackpots.

In addition, given the long history of data we have it is obvious that something changed when those jackpots that were being won several times a day suddenly stopped being won. And then a few weeks later they all reverted to their previous behaviour at the same time.

So then the only comeback is that our data is no good which has been suggested, again without any evidence to prove otherwise. Seeing as we recorded the data directly from Betsoft's servers after authenticating and getting a session token, we were receiving the exact same data that Betsoft was sending to its players while they were playing the game. So either our data is correct, or it is all wrong and therefore every player who was playing the games at the same time was being supplied with wrong jackpot data, which would be due to Betsoft incompetence. People can put their fingers in their ears and scream all they want about the data being no good because it doesn't support their predetermined conclusions or agenda that they are trying to push (sounding like a climate change denialist) but back in reality, Bovada's reaction says all you need to know about whether the numbers were right or not.

I'll quote Michael Bluejay (someone I have never met or spoken to before this) who wrote this after seeing the data:

So instead of answering the questions I gave you, you ignore my post to you completely then complain that my detailed and honest answer to Trayber was too long for your liking. Would you like me to draw you a nice children's book with large words and pictures next time?

It is clear that what I have said to you has struck a nerve and you have no comeback other than to try to question our integrity. Classic playing the man rather than the ball. The pathetic tactic of someone who has been defeated in an argument.

I'm still waiting for your reasonable alternative interpretation of our data on the Betsoft jackpots that you keep alluding to but refuse to provide. You offer nothing of substance to back up anything that you are saying. You are all fart and no poo.

Furthermore you are plainly a shill that is in the pocket of Betcoin, and anything that you say should be read with that in mind. How on earth you could still trust the site after the mountain of evidence that has been presented is beyond me. You either work for them or are deluded.

I have already answered all your questions including the one you have rephrased and posed several to you which you are clearly unable or unwilling to address. Until you do so I will not engage with you further. People can make up their own mind as to who is being honest and what their motivations are here.

Er... ooooookkkkaaaaay

/backs away quietly, hands raised, no sudden movements...


Yep. I agree, you're clearly a fountain of knowledge in this area.

/shuffles away some more...

Firstly Trayber thank you for your appreciation of the ongoing time and effort that we put into this. I know that you guys think that we're making loads of money from casinos that "primarily offer Betsoft games" and therefore don't want to do anything about it. That is not the case at all. Did you not notice that we were the ones who tracked their jackpots, we were the ones who publicised the issues, we were the ones that publicly posted articles urging people to avoid their games, and now only a small number of other affiliates sites and casinos have taken note? If it were the case wouldn't it have been better for us to not do the study, not publicise the results, and not call Betsoft and Betcoin out on it? According to your logic, wouldn't we make more money by ignoring this whole thing? The proof is in the pudding and that weak argument does not stack up at all.

In fact, here's an exercise for you. Find me a casino that "primarily offers Betsoft games" that we have rated 4 stars or higher on our site (these are the ones that people mainly go to). Can we agree that "primarily" means at least 50% of the games in their casino? I would be surprised if you can find one. You can start here on our page that lists Betsoft casinos. Most of the highly rated ones on that list are multi-provider casinos which use a third party aggregator platform for their games (eg EveryMatrix), of which Betsoft would make up less than 5 or 10% of the games at a guess. The fact is that there are very few Betsoft-only casinos, and those that do exist are poor. Don't swallow Betsoft's marketing lies and be mislead by perhaps your own experience of crypto-only casinos, they are not the major player that they claim to be.

Now are there casinos reviewed on our site that have Betsoft games that we have not blacklisted? Yes there are, as you can see on that page. Have any of those been complicit in the ripping off a jackpot winner, have any been caught running fake or pirated games, have any been shown to be not paying winners? Not to our knowledge. For example, do I think Guts Casino is a rogue? No of course not, they have one of the best reputations in the industry, but I noted today while writing this that they are running Betsoft games. That both concerns and surprises me.

We have been speaking to people at various casinos about this and it is an ongoing issue but at the end of the day, we are a small group of people who neither have the time nor resources to chase up every casino and alert them to this issue and encourage them to remove the games. We release our information publicly and do what we can. We have informed the Curacao licensing authorities. I'm sure you can guess what their response was. We can only guess too, because we never got one. It would be great if people who are customers (or concerned members of the community like yourself Trayber) of casinos that still run their games stopped playing there and contacted them and told them why. That would be a lot more productive that coming here and bitching and moaning at one of the few people to have actually done anything about this situation. If it wasn't for us you would be blissful in your ignorance of the charade being perpetrated by Betsoft and Betcoin, and 99% of other industry sites have said and done nothing about this at all.

We have Pragmatic Play (a.k.a. TopGame) on our blacklist too, but in recent times some well-run multi-platform casinos have added their games to their selection and we have not blacklisted them either. Its not a simple situation and I honestly do not know the right answer. In the absence of a better solution we continue to warn people not to play games belonging to a rogue software provider, and we will gladly inform people of any casino that decides to remove their games like Bovada, Slots.lv, and SlotsMillion did. We are not unfairly "biased" against Betsoft as they have been treated the same as TopGame / PP. Take note of that Betsoft and Betcoin shills.

I do agree that we need to find a better way to deal with otherwise good casinos with a history of fair operation (like Guts for example) that start offering games from software providers like Betsoft and Pragmatic Play that we consider to be rogue. I have a few ideas and I am open to suggestions, of which obviously the first is to blacklist them all as you suggest. I had hoped that publicly shaming these companies would achieve more than it has and make that step unnecessary, but there you have it, we are where we are which is sadly a reflection of the priorities of most people in this industry.

I haven't endorsed anyone or anything. I have expressed my personal opinion to show you that we are not anti-crypto casino which was your statement. We don't have a "whitelist". We review casinos and rate them accordingly. The really bad ones that cheat their own customers get blacklisted, like Betcoin. Personally I would not play at any casino that we have rated less than 4 out of 5, and we tell people that on our review index page. You could consider that our whitelist if you want to.

We don't audit anyone's RNG. I don't know what you're trying to prove with that statement. The uselessness of Betsoft's RNG audit is a prime example of the potential advantage provably fair games have over games that have no auditing, testing, or regulation. However, provably fair games aren't a panacea. They don't stop on operator from disappearing with everyone's money for example. How can you on the one hand lambast us for being anti-crypto casinos, then have a go at me when I say I like the idea of provably fair games? Surely you're not being disingenuous and attempting to derail and obfuscate?

We have reviewed several SoftSwiss casinos that offer Bitcoin and currency play, and all are licensed and regulated. We haven't reviewed any crypto-only casinos for no particular reason other than we have an ongoing review list that takes time to process. We have a small staff and an endless list of casinos to get through (447 reviewed vs 1133 in our database). Again, you're making assumptions and saying ignorant things based on those assumptions that are completely wrong.


What does that statement even mean? It is pure unmitigated FUD meant to sow doubt in the mind of anyone reading this without actually saying anything of value. How would we do a study that wasn't "in house"? What about it was "limited scope"? Everything anyone ever says is "open for interpretation". I would love to hear your interpretation of the differences between the jackpots on the same game that we noted between Bovada and Slots.lv. What reasonable explanation do you have for the fact that they were unwinnable at Bovada? How can you explain all the games drastically changing their win frequency and going weeks without being won, then suddenly all of them suddenly being won and resuming their previous frequencies in synchronicity? Do enlighten us with your reasonable and plausible "interpretation".

Ultimately we have published our findings and people can make up their own minds, agree or disagree. The important thing is that the information is out there and the public is informed. I don't care if it upsets Betsoft and Betcoin shills like yourself. At the moment all you're doing is attacking me and our study but providing no rational alternative explanation. Its a time honoured tactic of deflection used by people who have something to hide and nothing of value to say.


Feel free to point out anywhere that I said any company was reliable. You can't because I didn't. I cited companies that were regarded as "major forces" within this industry, i.e. most well known and influential. I certainly don't regard many of the major industry players as reliable. My point was that these companies actually occupy the position that Betsoft are trying to paint themselves as equivalent to when it is not the case to anyone with any significant industry knowledge. I maintain that Betsoft are a third rate software supplier, predominantly used by low rent casinos.

The fact that you are able to point to a documented legal case involving IGT says a lot, both about the benefits of companies being accountable to a regulator in a properly enforced jurisdiction, and your own nature of clutching at straws that devalue your own arguments. What recourse does Jason have in his case? Which court can he go to to get justice? Who even owns and operates Betsoft and/or Betcoin? What is their company name, the name of their directors, their address of operation? For goodness sake, that is the worst argument you have presented yet.


Making a jackpot impossible to win is equivalent to non payment, wouldn't you agree? Either way, someone gets ripped off and doesn't get paid what they should. Don't be asinine.


Betsoft are blacklisted. We have detailed the reasons why. As are Betcoin. What does it matter if one was placed before the other? Both are there because they deserve to be. Betsoft because of the many issues we raised and Betcoin because of their failure to pay their player, the continued use of Betsoft games even after they know one of their own customers has been cheated, and their documented history of running pirated games. I honestly don't understand what point you are trying to make on this, other than to again attack the messenger rather than the message. What is "funny" about us adding Betsoft to our blacklist a few days later than Betcoin? What exactly does that prove other than that I can be lazy and/or have many other things to do?

We are a site that reviews casinos and shares opinions. I am proud to be against software providers and casinos that rip players off. I would not have it any other way. If you think that is "bias" and that it is a bad thing then cool, I honestly think that you must be thick, but its your opinion nevertheless and you're entitled to it.


When you keep saying hyperbolic stuff like this it just looks more and more like you have significant skin in this game. Having a Betcoin logo in an effort to promote them is one thing but it appears to me that your involvement is more significant than that. I could not care less about anyone's career, and I'm not sure why you would care either unless you knew them, nor how you would know whether anyone was "honest" or not, unless you knew them. Do you think these "honest people" that you seem to know so well care about Jason or the legion of other players they cheated when they allowed games to be played with a jackpot that could not be won? You either don't know them and are lying, or you do know them and are not stating your conflict of interest. So which is it?

What more evidence do you need? If you have read and understood what has happened and are still not convinced that both Betsoft and Betcoin have serious trust issues and are better avoided, then nothing I can say or do will change your mind now. I would question your sanity and your reading comprehension though.

Why do shills for this company keep repeating this garbage about their "innovative" games and their "respect" within the industry and alluding to how they are such a big player etc? Its the most transparent and obvious marketing schtick and it is completely revisionist and false.

They are not the big player that they want everyone to believe they are. The major forces in this industry are the likes of Microgaming, Net Entertainment, Playtech (sadly), Novomatic, IGT and others. Betsoft are a bit part player at best, mostly used either by cheap casinos that don't have the funds to license the best software, or ones that want to accept American players that the major industry providers won't go near.

You want to talk about Betsoft's history? How about the time in 2010 when they were busted running a rigged Keno game? Or the time in 2014 when Alderney revoked their license to operate? Or the 9 month investigation that we did that revealed that they do in fact "have a history of not paying", specifically with unwinnable progressive jackpots. Those are facts, not marketing drivel.


Great, seeing as I have demonstrated this then you do agree that they are scammers.


That may be the case if we were talking about a networked progressive that is shared amongst casinos. But we aren't. The jackpot that Jason was robbed of was specific to Betcoin. No other casino. So no, you're completely wrong when you say "it's the only way to provide such large jackpots to the consumer" because clearly, it isn't.


Wrong and wrong again. Did you even read what you linked to where I said "while we haven't written them up yet on the blacklist page, they are definitely going on there in short order"? Our blacklist page features Betsoft (and Betcoin too).


This is again incorrect. We have a problem with unlicensed and unregulated casinos. The fact that almost all crypto casinos meet that definition probably leads to your misinterpretation. We like provably fair games and Bitcoin as a payment method is quick and cheap. Its great. But when the casino is not accountable to anyone and can just disappear overnight then I would not recommend playing there for the same reason I would not store BTC in an online wallet or exchange.

 


How do you think that they are going to spend the Bitcoin that they fleece from players? Despite what Bitcoin evangelists would like to believe we're not at the point where you can live on Bitcoin, and especially not when you're talking about large sums of cash. I guarantee you that they will be converting their Bitcoin to currency at some point. Seriously, you can't be that thick can you?


Thanks again for more evidence of your charming personality. What exactly is "BS" about saying that they accept business from Americans (true) and that they have been very careful to not reveal the associated company names (again true)? It is the exact opposite of "BS". Do you even know what the word means?

Don't presume to lecture me about online gambling laws in the USA. I'm pretty sure that I have far more experience in this area and know more about it than you do. Legal arguments that vary from state to state aside, no unlicensed operator that accepts money from Americans for gambling wants their details known to the U.S. government who have shown their willingness time and again to aggressively pursue operators irrespective of the laws.

Sure there are "several" companies that license in Curacao and reveal a company name, usually an untraceable shelf company with offshore directors, but so what? By your own admission, there are many others that don't. What is your point?


That may or may not be the law but it is certainly not reality. There are countless sites that are hosted in Curacao without any kind of license. Many cite a license held by their software provider (eg Betsoft) but have no specific license of their own. Others are just plain unlicensed. Do you know the meaning of the word "indication"? I'll give you a hint: it is not a certainty.


Whether they are or are not governed or subject to the laws of either country, or whether they are intending to mislead is irrelevant. Who are you going to sue? There is no company name, director's name, physical address, mailing address, phone number, or anything else that you can use to tie them to someone you could sue. So arguing about whether the statement is true or not is ultimately pointless. There is no way to sue them or take them to court at present so you need to find another way. Perhaps you could take Betsoft or Cloudflare to court and compel them to reveal the names of their clients?

You see, I am broadly agreeing with you in that their terms of service are legally unenforceable. I have seen the same thing countless times over a decade working in this industry. However you plainly think that you know a lot more than you actually do and calling what I say "BS" when I am trying to help you out is rude and counterproductive. I would hate to see how you speak to someone who disagrees with you.

It could be that the operators of Betcoin are channeling their funds through a Hong Kong registered company for tax evasion purposes. Companies registered there pay zero tax on income earned from outside Hong Kong. You are right that online gambling is illegal there so they would be laundering money first by passing it through intermediary companies or payment processors which are all outside HK. If they are doing that it seems to me to be a pretty dumb thing to do to reveal that in their terms.


Betcoin is in the business of offering gambling services to Americans, so they have been very careful to not reveal the associated company names. All through their terms they just refer to themselves by domain name as a proxy for "we", "the company", "us" etc. Their domains, owned by a Stephen Lee, have all other info privacy protected. The domains are routed through cloudflare which hides the server's IP address and location. They aren't going to give you a company name because the operator does not want to be found.

There are many, many online casinos that state that they are "licensed" by Curacao or Costa Rica or Belize or myriad other places when in fact they only own a shell company and host their website there. In many cases the jurisdictions (like Costa Rica) don't even issue licenses for operating an online gambling site. The Curacao statement in the terms is an indication that they are probably hosted there. As you say, Curacao eGaming does issue licenses but sites that have one almost alway display a linked seal on their website. I can't find one of those on Betcoin's site. As far as I can tell, Betcoin is not licensed to operate an online gambling site by anyone, anywhere.

Actually whatever RTP they did or did not advertise for those pirated games is meaningless. The servers they were run on were not under the control of Novomatic so they could have been doing anything on the back end. The games would not have been tested, audited, or provably fair, and in all likelihood were rigged against players. You think the crooks who pirate and reverse engineer these games take care to make sure everyone gets an absolutely fair game? So even if they said the RTP was the same as the genuine games, it would not be believable. And that is without even considering the intellectual property and licensing issues raised by using pirated and unauthorised games.

I've also found a number of shitty affiliate sites that are working with Betcoin that have outdated reviews claiming that Betcoin also offers Aristocrat games. They were also pirated because Aristocrat is a tightly regulated Australian company that doesn't offer its games to unlicensed casinos for BTC play.

Obviously Betcoin knows all this because they have quietly removed the games at some stage. They just forgot to clean up the evidence trail that shows that they were using them. When a company makes one small mistake you can look past it and forgive them but when they make this many mistakes of this magnitude, come on, you would have to be a fool to continue trusting them.


Exactly, careless and incompetent at best. On the other hand someone not so generous could reasonably conclude that they are actively involved in ripping off their own customers.

I'm cross posting this from another thread over here as I think it is more evidence of Betcoin.ag's lack of professionalism and disregard for their own customers.

Hi folks. Thanks to Twitchyseal I was made aware of Betcoin's funny article about us (CasinoListings.com) that they wrote in an attempt to deflect from the bad publicity that their and Betsoft's actions have caused. After reading that and looking around their site I found this very interesting article that they published on October 9, 2014:


But those games are not there anymore right? Right, because they were fakes. They were pirated games running on a server under the control of the pirates. Novomatic do not license their games to unregulated casinos, and they are currently not available anywhere for legitimate play in Bitcoin. Let me be clear - anywhere that you find a Novomatic game that is playable in BTC or mBTC, the game is a fake and you are being cheated.

If you ever played these games at Betcoin, you were cheated. If so you should be contacting the casino and demanding a refund for any losses incurred on them. I won't hold my breath waiting for them to give it to you.

Hi folks. Thanks to Twitchyseal I was made aware of Betcoin's funny article about us (CasinoListings.com) that they wrote in an attempt to deflect from the bad publicity that their and Betsoft's actions have caused. After reading that and looking around their site I found this very interesting article that they published on October 9, 2014:


But those games are not there anymore right? Right, because they were fakes. They were pirated games running on a server under the control of the pirates. Novomatic do not license their games to unregulated casinos, and they are currently not available anywhere for legitimate play in Bitcoin. Let me be clear - anywhere that you find a Novomatic game that is playable in BTC or mBTC, the game is a fake and you are being cheated.

If you ever played these games at Betcoin, you were cheated. If so you should be contacting the casino and demanding a refund for any losses incurred on them. I won't hold my breath waiting for them to give it to you.

Remember when someone told you that it's better to shut your mouth and let people think you're an idiot, rather than open it and remove all doubt? Oh I see, sorry. You never got that message.

It is obvious that he has been coerced into saying what he has said. He probably wouldn't have been paid anything without posting it. Put yourself in his shoes and have a think about what you would do in the same situation: agree and get something, don't agree and get nothing.

Imagine if he had been paid the whole amount. He would be ecstatic and telling everyone. Betcoin would be making more of their BS marketing drivel posts and Betsoft would be issuing press releases and telling everyone what great guys they are. None of these things have happened so we can safely assume that he hasn't been paid the full amount that he won.

That is all anyone needs to know. What difference does it make to you how much they paid him? No matter what he received it was less than he should have, so he has been ripped off. Yet Betcoin and Betsoft continue on their merry way with no care, no responsibility. You would be smarter to remember and concentrate on that rather than abusing a victim who was put in a no-win situation.

That is one of the lamest things that I have ever had the misfortune of reading. While you're busy talking this crap and paying off poor Jason (who is in a no-win situation) to shut up, other casinos are busy dropping Betsoft's crooked games completely. It is clear that neither you nor Betsoft has paid this jackpot that Jason won, so you're just as bad as each other. You could have stood up for your player and done the right thing and applied some pressure to Betsoft and compelled them to pay but you didn't. You wimped out and sadly for you have ruined your reputation in the process.

Casino Listings will continue to actively warn people against playing at your casino because you simply cannot be trusted.

A few people asked me that but it was just unfortunate timing I'm afraid (CL is my site). Our former host pulled the rug out from under all their customers without any notice whatsoever. At one stage we were looking at losing 12 months worth of data but thankfully were able to recover it around 3 days later. We're back and running fine now.

Thanks for keeping on this TwitchySeal. Maintain the rage.

Well if they do respond, I'd also like to know who is holding the progressive jackpot money - the casino or Betsoft?

Ok I want to post this here to pre-empt the casino and/or Betsoft trying to use what I found as an excuse. I found a single Betsoft game - Slots Angels - that does specifically state that you can't win the jackpot in free spins mode. I believe that this is for two reasons: 1. the game makes the entire centre reel wild during free spins and 2. it has a feature where you can get a re-spin on an already winning spin to have a second chance of winning some more. I don' think that either of these things happen in The Glam Life.

http://i.imgur.com/SPEpoVM.jpg

The fact that there is one game that specifically states this rule, along with the evidence posted before from Greedy Goblins, clearly suggests that The Glam Life is not supposed to operate like that. If it was, Betsoft would surely have put the rule in the paytable like they did on Slots Angels.

I have been trying unsuccessfully to get in touch with anyone at Betsoft on jasonort's behalf.

In the meantime we have published a warning recommending that people avoid playing all Betsoft games.

The article is long, so if you want the TLDR version with our reasoning:

1. Documented discrepancies in their progressive jackpot payouts between the same game on different casinos, and even the same game with different coin sizes. Some jackpots appear to be impossible to win.
2. jasonort's experience in not being paid a legitimate progressive jackpot win.
3. The revoking of their Alderney license in 2014.
4. Their RNG audit is worthless because it has a specific disclaimer that says that they did not test the results from any games that actually use the RNG.
5. While looking into this I found that back in 2010 they were busted running a cheating keno game at Absolute Poker that gave players no chance of winning at all. I was unaware of this before now.