Thank you Ambatman for the clarification.  It makes sense that the binary string of bits would be supplied to the PBKDF2 function.

I appreciate everyone's help on this!

I believe I am now good to go.  I did not realize how much happened to the 128/256 bits of entropy before arriving at the ACTUAL PRIVATE KEY.  Pretty crazy!  But obviously anyone in possession of the seed phrase or entropy that it represents might as well be in possession of your Private Key.  That point has been hammered home.  I guess that is why I always thought the 128/256 bits of entropy that the mnemonic seed phrase represented WAS the Private Key.  Go figure.

Thanks again everyone!  You guys are awesome!

Kresp

mcdouglasx, Thank you for the links.  I don't know how I missed finding that site.  The links were very helpful.

So from what I gather: It is the "mnemonic seed phrase" that is passed into the PBKDF2 function and not the actual binary bits.  I assume the function converts the mnemonic words into the entropy (binary bits) that the mnemonic words represent?

In addition to the mnemonic seed phrase.  The phrase "mnemonic" is also passed into the PBKDF2 function as salt.  If an optional passphrase is used than it is concatenated to the word "mnemonic".  i.e. passphrase is "Password" so the string "mnemonicPassword" is passed into the PBKDF2 function as the salt?

The PBKDF2 function using HMAC-SHA512 hashes this 2048 times?  And produces a 64 byte digest.  Or basically 512 bits.  Am I understanding this right?  It actually hashes it 2048 times?

This 512 bit seed is then used to produce the Master Private Key by passing it into the HMAC-SHA512 hashing algorithm along with the key "Bitcoin seed".  The resulting 64 byte digest (512 bits) is then broken into two halves of 256 bits each.  The first 256 bits being the Master Private Key.  The last 256 bits being the Master Chain Code.

Have I got that right?  In other words the first 512 bit seed that we get from the PBKDF2 function is NOT the Master Private Key?  But rather the seed used to create the Master Private Key?

I did find the additional information about how the child keys were generated etc. using the Chain Code with the Master Extended Key interesting.  But my main focus was to understand the steps from "Mnemonic Seed Phrase" to actual "Master Private Key".

Thank you again for the links.  I would love confirmation that I have the above steps correct?  If not please set me on the straight and narrow path and give me an address so I can buy you a coffee or something.

I just noticed that Mia Chloe posted a response and it has left out the 2nd hashing of the 512 bit seed.  Her response suggests that the 512 bit digest received from the PBKDF2 function IS the Master Private Key.  But from what I read on those links you sent me I believe my understanding as described above is correct.  I will let someone confirm this.  Thank you so much again for the help!  It really is appreciated!

Kresp

I always thought the Private Key was the 128 binary bits represented by the 12 Word Mnemonic or the 256 binary bits represented by the 24 Word Mnemonic.
I am working on an article about the Private Key and was doing some deep diving/research into it and now I'm realizing that I have been wrong all along. :=)
I'm beginning to understand that the mnemonic seed phrase simply represents the entropy used in creating the Master Private Key.  O.K.

So, I want this article I am working on to be accurate.  While I am not necessarily interested in giving an exact coding example I do want to have all the elements involved correctly identified and explain how they work together to create the Master Private Key.

It is my understanding that the 128/256 bits of entropy provided by the mnemonic seed phrase is hashed along with either a NULL STRING or the 2nd Passphrase provided per the BIP39 standard using HMAC-SHA512.  But I have seen references to a third static item of information that is either "Bitcoin seed" or "mnemonic" that is also hashed in there with the above two items I mentioned.  So which is it?  "Bitcoin seed"?  Or "mnemonic"?  Or is it something else?  Or have I completely lost it and don't understand anything?  :-(  And are all 3 items hashed together at the same time?  Or are there steps?  And if so what is hashed at each step?

I would like to know the exact sequence of events that occur when the wallet software accepts the mnemonic seed phrase and the 2nd phrase sometimes referred to as the 13th/25th word.  What steps occur to arrive at the 512 bits that represent the Master Private Key (Left 256 bits) and the Master Chain Code (Right 256 bits).  Also, is the Private Key just the LEFT 256 BITS?  Or is it the entire 512 bits?  Just trying to clarify things in my head.  Apparently I do not fully understand what the Master Chain Code is or what it does?  Maybe it's not important that I understand but if it involves the Private Key or affects it in any way then I would like to understand it better.  If not I am O.K. with explaining to the reader that the Master Chain Code while important is not part of the Master Private Key.

Thank you so much in advance for wading through my questions.  I really appreciate any light or clarification that you can shed on this for me.

Kresp.

Yes.  When it was convenient I did between 2014 and 2021.  I've started to HODL it now though.  If I need extra cash rather than spend my bitcoin I now borrow against it on AAVE and spend the USDC either directly or by depositing it into my bank account and then spending it like normal money.  Coinbase currently will let you withdraw bitcoin into a BASE address and it magically becomes cbBTC which is technically not bitcoin but they automatically convert it back into bitcoin anytime you move the cbBTC out of your BASE address back into your Coinbase account.  This is handy because it allows you to borrow against the bitcoin on AAVE on the BASE network.  If you want to use the Ethereum network than you need to convert your bitcoin to wrapped bitcoin, wBTC.  But then you have to contend with the rediculously high Ethereum gas fees!  I mention it only for those that may not trust Coinbase.  I don't really trust either one of them but I will put a bit of trust in them when I need to borrow a bit of cash against my bitcoin.  Then as I am able I pay back the loan.  That way the bitcoin stays intact and continues to appreciate... hopefully. :=) Plus no taxable event occurs because I never sold it.  Because it's a bit volatile you do have to be careful how much you borrow against it.  But I digress. Regarding the question I bought computer stuff off Newegg and paid for subscriptions as well as paid for pharmaceutical drugs.  In every case where I spent my bitcoin I spent it directly.  I did not use the bitcoin debit cards etc.  I am a bit irritated at the cost of using such instruments.  Tradfi has really infiltrated the crypto sphere and is capitalizing on making money in it.  What should be happening is everyone should be using crypto directly and leaving tradfil completely out of the equation.  Just my two satoshi's worth of thoughts.  Kresp.

Thank You TravelMug for confirming the date of the event for me.  I am working on a specific project and wanted to accurately include that event.  I remember it being a big deal back in the early days. While it may not be talked about as much or even done as much I absolutely agree that you must self custody your own crypto.  Otherwise you just don't own any.  But I'm preaching to the choir here.  I was surprised that there were people who hadn't heard of it.

Kresp.

Does anyone know the date for the "Not Your Keys, Not Your Coins" withdrawel of crypto from all exchanges?  I seem to remember this being a thing.  Once a year everyone withdrew all their crypto off the exchanges to prove that the exchanges were being honest or if they weren't to rat them out.  I have googled and googled and cannot find a thing on this.  But I know it WAS a thing at one time.  Maybe not so much anymore but I would love to document the historical event.  I know it was an annual thing.  I'd really like the actual date that was set and used.  I'm thinking it might have been Bitcoins birthday, January 3?  But I want to be sure I document it properly if I am going to document it.

@Reatim - My apologies if this was posted in the wrong place. It applies to bitcoin in that I was asking about the mnemonic word lists.  But if it should have been elsewhere then please accept my humble apology.

@ DaveF - Thanks for the article on the differences.  I found it very interesting and after reading through it I have come to the same conclusion that you suggested.  I'm going to just produce BOTH lists.  I believe there will be a market for both of them.  I will let the Chinese people purchasing the item make the final decision.  They will have a choice and can acquire either version.

@odolvlobo - I also found this article interesting.  And the fact that the same word can represent a different value on each list is significant!  I had not realized the two lists were that different.  Ultimately I'm just going to treat them as two separate lists/languages and whenever the person buying my product goes to order it they can pick which of the 10 languages/lists on github they want to order.

I appreciate the insight everyone provided.  It was appreciated.

Kresp

I am working on a mnemonic list project that will be printed.  I noticed on git hub that there are 10 different lists.  Most of them are different languages but two of the lists are CHINESE.  One is TRADITIONAL CHINESE while the other is SIMPLIFIED CHINESE.

I have decided I am going to print my project in all the different languages so that people of the various languages can acquire my project in their language.

So I am wondering what the difference is between these two CHINESE lists?  If you were me would you print BOTH lists?  Or just print one and if only one, which one?

I am not Chinese and so I am trying to understand what the fundamental differences are in these two lists.  I've noticed that some of the words seem to be the exact same symbols, while others are clearly different.

Thank you for your time.

Kresp

@NeuroticFish - There was no reason.  And you might be correct, perhaps I should have started a new topic.  I don't post a lot on social media so I'm not in tune with all the nuances, proper etiquette, etc.  I had jumped onto this forum to ask a specific question about what the difference was between the TRADITIONAL Chinese BIP39 list and the SIMPLIFIED Chinese BIP39 list and which one would a Chinese person prefer?  Anyway, while on the board I happened across this post and since I had just finished completing a "Private Key Kit, which presents how you can hide your mnemonic seed phrases in plain sight", project that I have been working on since 2018, I was very familiar with what he was wanting to do.  So I decided to post.  I saw that it was old but my purpose was simply to send him a direct reply to his question.  So I saw no reason to resurrect the subject necessarily.  What's funny is that this morning after reading the replies I went back and read through the entire thread to get context on some of the quotes being presented in the replies.  I found that I had actually replied to this guy back in June of 2020.  When I wrote my post yesterday I had no idea I had already replied to this thread.  I guess that says something for my memory!  I'm definitely not getting any younger and I am realizing the importance of writing EVERYTHING down.  It just doesn't have to be written down in a straight forward manner.  While there are many forms of security I still believe mis-direction is a very effective form when securing your private key seed phrases.

I will add to my post - While having 3 words represent 128 bits of entropy is not really possible since it would require a mnemonic word list with over 17 Trillion words in it.  @casdinyard is correct that you could use 33 bits of entropy along with a PASSWORD and store some bitcoin in it.  I personally wouldn't recommend putting your life savings behind a Private Key created with only 33 bits of entropy.  But for spending money on a trip it might be fine.  Just FYI: Using 33 bits of entropy essentially gives you a Bitcoin Private Key that falls between 1 - 8,589,934,591.  While picking a number from 8 and one half billion numbers might take awhile there might be hacking groups out there that are monitoring bitcoin addresses created from the first few million numbers? Or even Billion numbers?  I don't really know?  I suppose a way to increase security would be to repeat the 3 words three more times therefore giving you 12 words.  And to improve security beyond that you could reverse the order of the 3 words, i.e. 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1.  Or, 1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3.  Or some other scheme to mix them up a bit.  Any which way you do it though I would not consider it a super secure wallet.  But probably O.K. to temporarily put bitcoin in for a trip.  Especially if you then add a Passphrase to the mnemonic phrase to secure it further.

I'm just so happy that Bitcoin exists.  The ability to mange my own money without having to rely on anybody else!  It's intoxicating!

Kresp

I find your post interesting.  I had similar questions when I first started diving down the rabbit hole of private keys and mnemonic seed phrases.  I wanted a way to create a seed phrase that I didn't have to write down.  To do what you are asking and preserve the same level of entropy you would need a mnemonic word list that was longer.  The current BIP39 mnemonic word list is 2048 words long.  It operates on the premise that you are writing down BASE 2048 numbers.  You can represent ANY number that could be a valid 128-bit Bitcoin Private Key using 12 words.  It takes 24 words to represent a 256-bit Bitcoin Private Key.  But if you increased the BASE of the numbering system.  And without doing some math I can't say exactly what it would need to be increased to...  but I am thinking 4 times what it is now to convert your 3 words to 12 words.  That's my off the cuff thinking but it might actually be different.  Anyway, assuming that then you would have to have a mnemonic word list that was 8,192 words long.  Obviously this could be done.  Then each word would represent 44 bits of entropy instead of the 11 that they currently represent.  3 words would represent 132 bits which is the 128 bits needed for the Private Key plus the 4 bits needed for the CHECKSUM value.  So your idea is achievable.  The first step would be to begin creating a longer mnemonic word list.  If you are serious about doing this I would be happy to collaborate with you and help you with it.

I have been working on a Private Key project that while not what you are trying to do is similar in some ways to what you are asking about.  I began in 2018 with the idea that I wanted to "Hide my Seed Phrases in Plain Sight".  The idea being that if anyone was able to acquire my seed phrase they could rob me of all my crypto.  Or at least all the crypto stored in that particular Private Key.  I launched a Kickstarter Campaign but the time was too early and we were in the midst of a bear market.  It went no where.  But I continued developing my concept.  I now have it close to completion and will be selling it soon.  During my 6 year journey developing this project I also developed a "seedless" Private Key method.  And by "seedless", I mean just that!  I have multiple stashes of bitcoin stored on the bitcoin network and NO SEED PHRASES written down for them.  There is method to my madness and I do have a few notes written down to ensure I don't totally forget how to access the bitcoin.  But these notes are not crypto related.  So anyone rummaging through my stuff wouldn't necessarily connect that those papers referred to my bitcoin.  Anyway, I don't want to give anything away regarding my personal crypto holdings but suffice it to say I am totally happy with my method.  I now have access to certain amounts of my crypto without carrying ANYTHING on me.  I don't need my notes unless I forget.  They are just a back up in case I get old and forget.

O.K. so I couldn't leave it alone.  I had to check if a BASE 8192 would work.  And it will!  So I will leave a short description of how you can accomplish what you want to do.

Step #1. You have to have a mnemonic word list that contains 8192 words.  You can create your own custom list but for purposes of my short tutorial here I am going to concatenate 4 of the 2028 BIP39 Word Lists off of Github.  There are 10 lists posted on Github in 9 different languages.  We're just going to use 4 of them.  ENGLISH + FRENCH + ITALIAN + SPANISH.  NOTE: The order is IMPORTANT!  The first word on the FRENCH list will represent word #2049.  Which brings up another wrinkle that must be addressed.  Word #1 on the ENGLISH list is really Word #0.  And the first word on the FRENCH list is really word #2048.  If you do not understand why this is then you probably shouldn't be doing this.  But suffice it to say the word lists should be numbered 0 thru 2047.  Not 1 thru 2048 like they are on Github.  So if you are going to do this I would recommend you copy all 4 lists off of Github and paste them into a text editor of your choice and re-number the entire list of 8,192 words.  The ENGLISH list should be 0 thru 2047.  Just subtract 1 from each number.  The FRENCH list should start with 2048 and run through 4095.  The ITALIAN list should start with 4096 and run through 6144.  And last the SPANISH list should start with 6145 and run through 8192.  It is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that these words have the proper number values associated with them!!!  NOTE: The 4 lists I am using I have arranged in alphabetical order.  This is to help ensure that you always arrange them in the correct order each time you go to re-assemble your 8192 mnemonic word list.

Step #2. Next step is to take your 12 or 24 word seed phrase and convert it into BINARY digits.  Here is how you will do that.  I will use the word list provided by "Pooya87". If you pull up the calculator on your Windows computer you can choose "Programming" option and pick "Decimal".  Put the decimal number into it and then pick "Binary".  It will convert your Decimal number into Binary.  I will do the conversions on these 12 words for you.  But I'm just trying to give you a helpful tip.  However, you are technically entering bits of your private key into your online computer if you do this.  So some die hard bitcoiners will tell you to manually calculate the conversion from decimal to binary.  I will leave it up to you how you handle that.  Just remember.  The conversions HAVE TO BE DONE CORRECTLY and ACCURATELY!!! Otherwise your new seed phrase will come out wrong.  I am going to list the DECIMAL number followed by the BINARY number and then followed by the WORD so that all the number digits will line up in nice neat columns.  The word lengths vary so I am putting the word on each row last.

legal winner thank year wave sausage worth useful legal winner thank yellow

#1019 - 01111111011 - legal (Note: On Github it is listed as word #1020.  But this is wrong.  The actual value represented by the word "legal" is 1019 when calculating a Private Key.)
#2015 - 11111011111 - winner
#1790 - 11011111110 - thank
#2039 - 11111110111 - year
#1983 - 11110111111 - wave
#1533 - 10111111101 - sausage
#2031 - 11111101111 - worth
#1919 - 11101111111 - useful
#1019 - 01111111011 - legal
#2015 - 11111011111 - winner
#1790 - 11011111110 - thank
#2040 - 11111111000 - yellow

Step #3. You now concatenate the BINARY numbers together into one long line that will be 132 BINARY digits long.  128 digits for the Private Key and 4 digits for the CHECKSUM.

0111111101111111011111110111111101111111011111110111111101111111011111110111111 10111111101111111011111110111111101111111011111111000

Step #4. You now have to pull off your 3 sets of 44 BINARY digits to create your 3 words.  Take the first 44, then the 2nd set of 44 and then the last 44.  Then convert the 44 digit BINARY number into a DECIMAL number.

01111111011111110111111101111111011111110111 - 08761598539767
11110111111101111111011111110111111101111111 - 17040274325375
01111111011111110111111101111111011111111000 - 08761598539768

Step #5.  Look up your new 3-word mnemonic phrase.  And this is where I am realizing I have errored in the number of words needed for the new mnemonic seed phrase list.  It is not 4 times the original amount but rather the original amount to the 4th power.  If you take 2048^4 this equals 17,592,186,044,416.  That is how many words you will need in your list in order to represent your 12 word seed phrase in just 3 words.

If you think O.K. I can remember 4 words.  Let's do 4 words instead of 3.  Then you would need 8,589,934,592 in your list.  That is over 8 BILLION WORDS!  To just cut the 12 words in half you would need 4,194,304 words.  Over 4 million words!

O.K. it was a fun exercise.  Hopefully you have enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed creating it! 
 
Kresp Rowland out.

I am working on a mnemonic list project that will be printed.  I noticed on git hub that there are 10 different lists.  Most of them are different languages but two of the lists are CHINESE.  One is TRADITIONAL CHINESE while the other is SIMPLIFIED CHINESE.

I have decided I am going to print my project in all the different languages so that people of the various languages can acquire my project in their language.

My question to the Chinese people is:  Would you want to have a choice between these two language types in your language?  Or would my printing the project in one or the other be sufficient?  And if only one is necessary which one should I use?

Thank you for your time.  My apologies for writing this in English. 

Kresp

I appreciate all the feedback.

I have entered the 24 word seed into a Trezor One I had on hand.  It does recover the account showing all their tx history including where they sent the 3 Bitcoin out on December 19, 2017.  But it does not show 3 bitcoin being received.  I also had it display the "Legacy" accounts over on the left of the screen as HCP was showing.  They are all empty. 

I am beginning to think that they acquired the address from some other source and not their Trezor One.  They are quite certain this is not the case.  They assure me they had no other wallets or accounts other then Coinbase and they are not there.

So I am left scratching my head.  The 3 bitcoin are in the address they sent me in their email back in 2017. They say it came from the Trezor One.  They say they saw the 3 bitcoin I sent back to them show up in the "Legacy Account" on the Trezor One but that they were greyed out.  They were unable to send them any where.  Then after they updated the firmware they claim the bitcoins quit showing up in the legacy account even as greyed out ones.  It is not clear to me whether the actual firmware update caused them to disappear or whether the cookies on their computer that had knowledge of the bitcoin expired.  But if the Ledger software was showing the coins as greyed out coins in a legacy account then surely the address came from the ledger?  I have both seed phrases they claimed to have used with the Trezor One.  They are adamant that there were no other seed phrases ever used.  The 12 word phrase first then later they re-set the trezor and used the 24 word phrase it gave them.  For what it's worth the 24 word seed phrase shows the history of them sending me the 3 Bitcoin.  So I feel when I returned it to them a few weeks later they would have given me an address out of the trezor using the 24 word seed.  But even if the address came from the 12 seed phrase it should show up when I recover it.  And the 3 bitcoins do not show up on the Trezor One in any of the accounts including the legacy account for either seed phrase.

So I am stumped.

At this point I am simply going to try crafting a manual bitcoin transaction using a private key derived from the 24-word seed phrase and see if when submitted the bitcoin network will move the coins for me.

I'll keep you posted as to any outcomes I achieve.

Thank you for taking the time to help out.

I'm thinking it might not hurt to reach out to Tresor support as well since my sister is telling me that after the firmware update the coins quit showing up...?  I'll let you know what they say if and when I get a reply from them.

Thanks for the heads up.  I won't bother with the experiment then.

I DID find the "Detect Existing Accounts" button mentioned by Neurotic Fish.  So I went back and entered the 12 word seed and clicked on that button.  It found the "account 0" and of course when I loaded the wallet it had my sisters history of her tx's in it and a zero balance.  So then I entered the 24 word seed and clicked on that button.  It found nothing!  No accounts detected.  And when I loaded the wallet there was absolutely NO TX HISTORY and the wallet was empty. So that left me scratching my head because I thought we had seen the tx history in electrum with their 24 word seed.  I went back through the restored electrum wallets I had open and the one that has the history in it for the 24 word seed is the one that I restored as a HARDWARE WALLET using the trezor attached to Electrum.  The trezor of course having been restored with the SAME 24 word seed.  This is a little baffling to me because I clearly remember when I had suggested to my sister that she restore her seed using the Electrum wallet.  Her and her husband did that and I remember them exclaiming that it had all their tx history in it.

Anyway, the Detect Existing Accounts did not detect anything that I haven't already restored.  I'm still not clear on why the trezor has their account tx history and my restoration of the same seed phrase in Electrum does not???  I did choose BIP39 for the seed type.

First of all thank you so much for taking your time to read and respond.  I was out with the family all day Saturday... my apologies for not getting back sooner.

I agree that malware is most likely not involved.  I realize this is always an everpresent concern though...

Yes, the addresses all start with 1.  The address it was sent to starts with 1.  And all the addresses generated by the Electrum Wallet from the seed started with 1 as well.

I did try Derivation paths m/44'/0'/1', m/44'/0'/2', m/44'/0'/3'.  No luck.  All empty.

I'm planning to look at iancoleman.io's website but have not had the time yet.  I understand I would want to download it and use it offline.  No worries there.

I have been telling Electrum that it is a BIP39 seed.  I also connected the trezor to electrum and let it create a hardware wallet with the connected trezor.  I get the same result.  Empty wallet but full of all the previous tx's that it showed in the restored wallet with the trezor's bip39 seed imported.

I could not figure out how to have Electrum "detect existing accounts"?  I am using version 4.1.5.  I googled and read the wallet documentation.  I could not find anything along that line.  If you have any more information on this I would be interested.

So I did text my sister regarding the statement she made about them "seeing" the coins at first on the trezor before they disappeared completely.  This was her response...

When you sent it, we could see the 3 coins in a legacy wallet that was greyed out. We couldn't open it. Recently, when we were collectively trying to get into the trezor without our pin, we reset the firmware. We finally found the pin, but by then the firmware had already been reset. Since then, we have never been able to see it on the trezor. But before we reset the firmware, we could see the coins on the trezor.

This is very interesting to me and gives me hope that the address really does belong to their seed phrase.  They are very certain they acquired the address they sent me FROM the Trezor... They just can't remember if it was before or after they changed their seed phrase.  I do have both seeds from them.  Perhaps I should try all the things I just tried above with the first seed phrase?

I also created a "Watching only wallet" in electrum and put the address in it.  Of course Electrum shows the bitcoin on the address.  I realize this is nothing earth shaking.  But wondered if I did derive the private key from the seed if I could "add" that to the watching only wallet to enable me to send the bitcoin out of it?  I might experiment with a small amount of bitcoin of my own.  Create a wallet.  Move a small amount of bitcoin to it.  Then open a watching only wallet.  Create a private key from the mnemonic that I got from the first wallet and see if I could send coin out of my watching only wallet with that key?  I'll let you know how the experiment goes.

Again thank you so much!  If anyone has any other ideas, I am all ears.  We are talking a significant amount although I suppose that is subjective    But more then the amount I personally am more vested in understanding what/how it happened and how to retrieve it.  I may only check this once a day but don't take that as me not being interested.  I just have a lot going on in my life as I am sure most of you can relate to.

Cheers.

Kresp

My sister has come to me with a bizarre story.

1. She tells me the bitcoin I owed her and sent to her in December of 2017 is somehow unaccessible to them.  She's not asking me to replace it but was hoping I could help her recover it.
2. At the time they generated an address out of their trezor and emailed it to me.
3. I sent them the bitcoin.
4. I guess they confirmed receipt by checking the address on chain rather then going back to the safety deposit box for their trezor???  I can try and get more details from her regarding this but that is my understanding at the moment.
5. In January 2020 they moved all their bitcoin off the trezor onto Coinbase (temporarily until they could get another custody solution set up, which they have now done and the coin is back in their possession). It was during this move to Coinbase that they noticed the coin I sent to them in December of 2017 was NOT in their trezor balance.  My sister claims they could see it in some separate "legacy wallet" showing up on the trezor interface???  It is not clear to me exactly what she is talking about and I don't think they have any screen shots.  But I can interrogate her further on this if necessary.
6. She reached out to me for help and I suggested they put their seed phrase into an electrum wallet and the coin should show up.
7. She tells me they did this and while it shows all their tx history of their coin... it does not show the missing coin.
8. She and her husband have finally thrown in the towel and have given up.  They have offered me a small monetary reward if I can recover the coin for them.
9. They have given me their old trezor, which I told them wasn't necessary but they gave it to me anyway, along with both sets of seed phrases that they have ever used with it and their pin numbers (Something I also told them was unneccessary but they gave them to me anyway)
10. I took one of my own trezors and factory reset it.  Entered both sets of seed phrases (one at a time of course).  Both sets of seed phrases show ZERO coin in the trezor.
11. I tried going into the "secret wallet" on the trezor by using their pin numbers as a password, thinking maybe they accidentally entered the pin in the password field and created a secret wallet when they sent me the bitcoin address.  But none of the pin numbers used as a password for the secret wallet produce a wallet with anything in it.  I can ask them if they ever used a password with their trezor...
12. They also gave me a copy of the email with the bitcoin address in it. I could post it but don't see any point in doing so at this time.  I mention it only to say I did check the block explorer and the address does indeed contain the coin I sent them in December of 2017.  So it DOES exist and is sitting out there on the blockchain.
13. When questioned where they acquired the address from that they sent me... they are both very certain that they got it from their trezor.  If that is true I would think the coin should show up in the trezor account when restored?

So I am trying to decide what I need to do next?  I wondered if I could build and submit a tx to the blockchain requesting the transfer of the coin from that address to one of my addresses and somehow provide the private key (The mnemonic seed phrase they gave me) as my credentials for having the authority to spend the coin and would the blockchain move the coin if indeed the private key was correct?

But if the private key is correct the coin should show up in the trezor?  So before I spend a lot of time trying that I am open to any other ideas I should try?  Any other questions I should grill my sister on?  I did put the 2nd seed phrase into an electrum wallet of my own and it does indeed show all their tx history and does cover the time frame in which I did send them the coin.  So I believe the 2nd seed is the correct one.  But the electrum wallet is indeed empty.  So I am baffled as to what they might have done?  As in where they got the address from?

Thank you so much for taking the time to read.  I'm open to ideas...

I absolutely agree with you!  I shun all projects that try to mix bitcoin with traditional fiat systems.  I hate the broken fiat system and refuse to support it any more then I absolutely have to at the moment.  But I agree that bitcoin should be separate.

Hey thanks!  I appreciate the confirmation.  And the extra information regarding how it works. Much appreciated!

Bank's storage can be a valid place since it may be opened only by you or with your death certificate, afaik.

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I thought the whole point of Bitcoin is be your own bank. If you have to store your seed in a bank storage, what is the point of having Bitcoin in the first place?
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alexkrypto, I couldn't agree with you more.  Don't let all the hate you received on this post deter you.  It is not 100% clear to me how the "mnemonic phrase" and the "password phrase" get used in creating the final bitcoin private key and addresses.  I get that if no password were involved the 3-word mnemonic phrase would produce a less secure private key then a 6-word mnemonic phrase.  And I get what you are trying to achieve.  The whole point of bitcoin WAS so we wouldn't have to trust and use the banks!  I support your efforts and desire to completely cut the banks out of your life as much as possible!  Especially after how irresponsibly the FED has behaved this past year!  They can all... well I better not say.  But I am totally with you!  I have developed several methods myself and got a lot of hate when I tried to clarify certain aspects of my ideas as well.  I don't understand why most bitcoiners seem to think we have to walk the straight and narrow on proper protocol for securing your private bitcoin keys!  I think the metal plates to stamp your mnemonic keys into are stupid!  Unless the mnemonic key is encoded first!  None of my mnemonic keys are written down in the right order or even the right words.  Everything I do is encoded one way or another. I use mis-direction.  I use all kinds of methods!  The government nor the banks will ever get my crypto!  I am working on leaving some information that is written down behind for my kids after I die.  But they will first have to get the decryption keys that I will leave with my will.  Those will only decrypt the documents that explain where they can find the jump drives and other documents and decryption keys to finally decrypt the documents that will explain how to decrypt my mnemonic phrases.  Hopefully they will be able to properly follow the trail of breadcrumbs.  If not.  Oh well.  I'm not leaving my fortunes to the government or banks.  And if my grandkids are too stupid to figure it out.  I don't care if they get my money.  There will be a clear trail to follow.  It just won't be a trail that the Lawyers handling my will or the government will be able to follow.  Because you'll have to know certain things about me and my family.  About my past and whatnot.  Call me crazy!  I don't really care.  Carry on with your innovative ideas!  Nothing wrong with what you are trying to achieve.  I have several bitcents (0.01 BTC) stored in bitcoin addresses that exist ONLY IN MY HEAD.  I have written down some information that when properly decyphered will allow a family member to re-create the private key but I don't actually have the private key written down or stored anywhere.  Not even the mnemonic words.  Nothing!  It's all derived from information that I can remember easily and given a few hours I could sit down and reproduce the private key.  I have method to my madness.  I get that it's possible I could have a stroke and forget.  But I like the idea that if I were suddenly to find myself in a foreign country and needed funds.  I have them with me.  In my head.  All I have to do is find a bitcoin ATM.  Damn cool if you ask me!  And if those 7 or 8 bitcents get lost forever.  Oh well.  I've just increased the value of everyone elses bitcoin.  You're welcome!

I'd be happy to continue this discussion with you privately if you're interested in more ideas.  I'm not going to give away what I am doing but I think it's fun to discuss ideas of how bitcoin can be hidden in plain sight.

And for the record.  The first word of each sentence isn't that secure either.  Especially when there are exactly 24 random sentences???  I mean really?  The fact that they are random and disconnected would immediately make me suspicious that they were a mnemonic phrase.  I think there are better ways to disquise which words in a given paragraph of writing are the mnemonic words.  The writing should make sense.  There could be punctuation marks or just random things that would make the mnemonic phrase much less obvious. 

O.K. I'll get down off my soapbox now.  All the rest of the people in this thread of posts who think the OP has to write all his phrases down correctly and store them in a bank vault can leave now.  You can do what you want with your hard earned money.  I'm not trusting a bank to keep mine safe.

Kresp

I was going to start a new thread but this is EXACTLY what I was wanting to discuss!

The word list that this thread refers to should be numbered 0 thru 2047.  Correct? 

That is why you say 1 would actually refer to ABILITY rather then ABANDON.

I am working on a project that will involve a printed copy of this mnemonic word list.  And I was thinking the numbering should be offset by 1 so that it was numbered beginning with ZERO and ending with 2047 = zoo.

Can anyone confirm this?  I'm doing final proofing on my project and I started scratching my head over the numbering.  Because I originally just took a copy of the word list and used it verbatim.  But I'm realizing it is numbered incorrectly.

I'm already 99.9 percent certain that I need to go back and revise my numbering but just wondered if anyone else had any opinions?

I DO want the number associated with the word to match up with the number being used by the BIP39 protocol when creating the addresses etc.  I understand the last word is a checksum in the mnemonic word list etc.  But I still think "Abandon" should be numbered 0 and not 1.  I'm not wrong in my thinking on this am I?  I'm surprised the word list got published like it did... but I guess their thinking was, it was a list of 2048 words and they numbered them accordingly.

Thanks for reading and any feed back you might have.  I'd like this printed list to be numbered in the appropriate manner and even though the list on github is numbered 1-2048 I'm thinking I should number mine 0-2047.

Kresp.