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If anyone saw the complaint I had posted earlier. Please disregard it.
I received notice that my email to support had bounced.
This made me I assume that they were a scam, in part because my withdrawal request had been tied up for a number of hours.
The fact is I made an accusation without having all the information, it was regrettable and I now fully retract it.
I don't know why my email to them bounced. The mailer daemon message said that the account did not exist on the system.
I think it might be possible that they changed email providers or something and the MX record didn't propagate all the way (It can take up to 48 hours).
That's just a guess though. I really don't know the reason and it's irrelevant now.
Support answered my email. I sent the email at 3AM my time and received a reply by 4:30AM.
I just checked and my funds have arrived at their intended destination and have 6 confirms, which means they must have sent before I made the post.
Thank you Magnr and your support team for a great job! I officially apologize for what I said earlier.
I received notice that my email to support had bounced.
This made me I assume that they were a scam, in part because my withdrawal request had been tied up for a number of hours.
The fact is I made an accusation without having all the information, it was regrettable and I now fully retract it.
I don't know why my email to them bounced. The mailer daemon message said that the account did not exist on the system.
I think it might be possible that they changed email providers or something and the MX record didn't propagate all the way (It can take up to 48 hours).
That's just a guess though. I really don't know the reason and it's irrelevant now.
Support answered my email. I sent the email at 3AM my time and received a reply by 4:30AM.
I just checked and my funds have arrived at their intended destination and have 6 confirms, which means they must have sent before I made the post.
Thank you Magnr and your support team for a great job! I officially apologize for what I said earlier.
Is this an open source or a shareware bot.
It was originally going to be "source provided" meaning when you purchase it, you would receive a copy of the source.
During the testing period, testers would get the source for free in addition to the binary.
Lately I've been looking at the best way to do this and I've realized that it will never work the way I had hoped.
There just isn't enough interest in it to make it worthwhile as a standalone product certainly not anything that could cornerstone a business with and support would likely be a nightmare.
I found a company with a very similar business model and similar product.
Their product doesn't handle hashnest yet, when it does it will make this product far less attractive.
I've got another plan that I think will be better in the long run.
Build it into a webpage like https://www.bitaddress.org/ where everything is happening in your browser. It'll be "source available", meaning you can view the source and vet it. You can even save off a local copy if you like, I would just prefer it to not be redistributed.
Perhaps as a way to cover development and hosting costs for the bot, we could put in a miner that runs along side it when the page is open and idle, let it mine some altcoins or something.
Again I don't see creating this as a huge revenue generator anymore which makes me rethink whether or not I even want to bother with it.
But the hashnest markets are really inefficient right now which is a sign there aren't many bots doing a lot of trading. For example, there is no reason that UMISOO should be below 0.00031 GHS at current BTC/USD rates. It might also be due to the fact that there aren't a lot of people trading there either.
Perhaps a bot could help attract more people and make the markets more efficient.
I'll update this next week once I figure out which direction to take this endeavor.
I was just sarcastic you guys already make drama tjeezzz..
and by the way where did you get that much time and energy to write each page something pfff.. can't deal with your guys
have better things to do.
and by the way where did you get that much time and energy to write each page something pfff.. can't deal with your guys
have better things to do.
Good Bitcoin investments don't take a lot of babysitting and leave one with some free time. See how many people are questioning if Hashnest is really mining, or if they're really in China, etc. If you invest in legit mining or Bitcoin funds, you don't have to constantly worry and watch to make sure you're coming out ahead. Kind of nice, actually.
Sorry to jump in here, but I'm curious about your statement. I'm developing a tool to automate trading on HashNest and was wondering if you are implying there is a problem there or if you are using it as a contrast, it's not clear to me which is your intent.
My concern here is the time and effort I'm spending developing a tool for that specific platform, and I am looking for opinions. I had considered creating a similar tool for scrypt.cc but I can see pretty clearly that there are serious issues there. I ask about hashnest because I have yet to ever try and withdraw a significant amount of funds.
Thanks!
After looking closely at some of the projects that have come before which do similar activities I've decided to settle on Java 8 as the platform for this.
Last night I made significant progress on development after realizing that scripting integration in JVM is a snap now days, it's been years since I looked at Java, what can I say except I'm impressed. You can now make the "brains" in any of 30 languages, I'm sticking with Javascript for now since it's the most widely understood.
Monday it's still on to be released to the Alpha Group, I'm not sure why this got moved to service announcements since it's more of a development thread, but it's here now. Hope I'm not shouting into an empty room.
Last night I made significant progress on development after realizing that scripting integration in JVM is a snap now days, it's been years since I looked at Java, what can I say except I'm impressed. You can now make the "brains" in any of 30 languages, I'm sticking with Javascript for now since it's the most widely understood.
Monday it's still on to be released to the Alpha Group, I'm not sure why this got moved to service announcements since it's more of a development thread, but it's here now. Hope I'm not shouting into an empty room.
The current implementation is in golang, but the controller should probably be scripted so that it can be changed out readily.
During the refactor pre-analysis, I started looking at options for scripting the trading algorithms or as I put it before, creating "pluggable brains".
Javascript seems to be common enough nowdays that it might be a good candidate.
There are solid JS implementations for both golang and Java, of course there is nodejs as well.
Truth be told, 99% of people that would want this product, will probably have a nervous breakdown if they don't get a binary.
I've looked at some of the other algo bots (mostly crypto traders), that have shipped in the past and it seems to be a pretty common theme that people love their binaries.
In the end I may go with Java and the JDK because the JVM is ubiquitous and I don't want to have to create binaries for every possible platform.
Yet I also don't want the UI to be bogged down by J2EE or require a servlet container to run in, so I'm considering the possibility of creating the UI in JFX, or breaking the UI completely out from the app code and using something like pubnub or lightsteamer to push the data to any connected client. (Note: I could really use some help on the UI side if anyone reading this is a competent UX architect)
The way I have it planned right now, the scripting system is meant to be entirely event driven. Each time there is new information from one of the sources (which are on polling timers), a new event would be fired and the trading algorithm would be notified.
I believe that an event driven architecture might be the right way to go here.
It's certainly the simplest, but there is also the possibility of a more active system via a looping controller.
I don't think we could do looping/polling and event style together, it's resource intensive and could cause major conflicts.
This is one of those design decisions that no matter what is chosen, something is going to come along and break expectations.
A design that utilizes neural net style techniques (which is the long term direction I wanted to head) would probably benefit from an event driven architecture since NN are really not much more than a chained eventing mechanism with edge weights.
A design that utilizes genetic algorithms or does active hybrid evaluations or even relies on timers etc would likely benefit more from "main loop" concept.
Mostly just preserving some thoughts of my own for later, but any thoughts you might have would be appreciated.
During the refactor pre-analysis, I started looking at options for scripting the trading algorithms or as I put it before, creating "pluggable brains".
Javascript seems to be common enough nowdays that it might be a good candidate.
There are solid JS implementations for both golang and Java, of course there is nodejs as well.
Truth be told, 99% of people that would want this product, will probably have a nervous breakdown if they don't get a binary.
I've looked at some of the other algo bots (mostly crypto traders), that have shipped in the past and it seems to be a pretty common theme that people love their binaries.
In the end I may go with Java and the JDK because the JVM is ubiquitous and I don't want to have to create binaries for every possible platform.
Yet I also don't want the UI to be bogged down by J2EE or require a servlet container to run in, so I'm considering the possibility of creating the UI in JFX, or breaking the UI completely out from the app code and using something like pubnub or lightsteamer to push the data to any connected client. (Note: I could really use some help on the UI side if anyone reading this is a competent UX architect)
The way I have it planned right now, the scripting system is meant to be entirely event driven. Each time there is new information from one of the sources (which are on polling timers), a new event would be fired and the trading algorithm would be notified.
I believe that an event driven architecture might be the right way to go here.
It's certainly the simplest, but there is also the possibility of a more active system via a looping controller.
I don't think we could do looping/polling and event style together, it's resource intensive and could cause major conflicts.
This is one of those design decisions that no matter what is chosen, something is going to come along and break expectations.
A design that utilizes neural net style techniques (which is the long term direction I wanted to head) would probably benefit from an event driven architecture since NN are really not much more than a chained eventing mechanism with edge weights.
A design that utilizes genetic algorithms or does active hybrid evaluations or even relies on timers etc would likely benefit more from "main loop" concept.
Mostly just preserving some thoughts of my own for later, but any thoughts you might have would be appreciated.
I've been working on a trading bot for cloud mining.
I plan to make it generally available as a commercially supported product, along with full sources you can request.
You will be allowed to inspect and compile the sources, but not redistribute either the source or the binary.
It will be source available, not open source.
I'm calling it mine4free, since that is essentially what it tries to do at the moment.
You give it your API credentials set an aggression factor and let it run as a service on your own computer.
You can also stand it up pretty easily on a low cost VPS.
It will start a local webservice on your computer that will show you your current stats.
It monitors your cloud mining account in realtime.
It watches your hashing power, the current difficulty level, the BTC/USD rate and the maintenance fee as a percentage of earnings.
It then calculates an "expected profit" (EP), and places trades throughout the day in an effort to reach the expected profit.
Expected profit in this case is the amount you would make with the hashing power if there were no mining fee.
Just visit localhost with a webbrowser and you can see live what is happening to your account and why.
Right now it only works with HashNest, there is no intention of adding anywhere else at this time.
Primarily it works because the maintenance fee is offset by the buying & selling of hashing power on the market.
The end goal is to at least allow you to cloud mine without a maintenance fee.
This should effectively suck the marrow from the bones of the cloudmining markets.
Any additional earnings are great and the multiplier controls the aggressiveness of the trading activity, but obviously there are no guarantees.
Running the initial prototype over the last 24hrs, I've managed to cut the effective maintenance fee on 20 THS of S3 to less than 50%. While it did not reach targets it did essentially double my profits on the day. Giving me the power of 20 THS of S5 for the cost of 20 THS of S3.
This was just about the simplest algorithm I could come up with.
I know that better ones can be created, so I plan to revamp the core over the weekend and release the software to a test group for independent verification of results. I also plan to create a "pluggable brain", to allow you to create custom trading logic, to reach your own goals.
Long term I want to commercialize the trading bot, and build a community of "modders" who make the "custom pluggable brains", but short term I need more resources than I presently have in order to test just what I have now.
If you have a HashNest account, a reliable Internet connection and are willing to assume an enormous degree of risk, I'd like to talk to you about joining one of the testing groups. I say the risk is enormous because this is essentially untested, unproven software you will be handing over control of your HashNest account to. As we move towards commercial release, the risk becomes less and less but...
Don't be stupid, make sure you only use it with funds you are willing to lose.
The plan is to have 3 testing groups, alpha, beta & gamma which will launch over the next 90 days.
The Alpha Group will receive the software for free for life. It is limited to 10 people, which is the maximum number of people I feel like I can adequately support at this time. The alpha test period is expected to last 21 days, but may run longer if problems are detected. During this time, I would like daily feedback about the performance of the software as well as ease of use and stability.
The Beta Group will receive the software for free during the beta period only, after which a permanent license can be obtained for 1 BTC. The license will grant usage on one machine indefinitely and access to all future upgrades gratis. This will be limited to 25 people, the licensing fee will allow me to begin recruiting support personnel. It starts 7 days after the end of the Alpha period. Beta is also limited to 21 days, but may go longer if problems are uncovered.
The Gamma Group (Early Commercial Adopters) will be an invitation only pre-launch exercise. Gamma launches 7 days after the end of beta. The group will be limited to 100 users. The expectation is to charge an annual fee of 5 BTC, this will cover initial deployment during testing, but also give access to a permanently reduced annual licensing fee of 6 BTC. Support is of course included.
The final product will retail for a monthly licensing fee of 1BTC or an annual license of 10 BTC.
The licensing component is in place to provide continued support and will allow you to install community supplied "pluggable brain" mods from a market place. Community members can charge whatever they like for their mods and receive payment automatically.
If you would like to join one of the testing groups please feel free to mention it here.
Sign up is first come, first serve. I will send you a PM on Monday or Tuesday with detailed instructions.
I plan to make it generally available as a commercially supported product, along with full sources you can request.
You will be allowed to inspect and compile the sources, but not redistribute either the source or the binary.
It will be source available, not open source.
I'm calling it mine4free, since that is essentially what it tries to do at the moment.
You give it your API credentials set an aggression factor and let it run as a service on your own computer.
You can also stand it up pretty easily on a low cost VPS.
It will start a local webservice on your computer that will show you your current stats.
It monitors your cloud mining account in realtime.
It watches your hashing power, the current difficulty level, the BTC/USD rate and the maintenance fee as a percentage of earnings.
It then calculates an "expected profit" (EP), and places trades throughout the day in an effort to reach the expected profit.
Expected profit in this case is the amount you would make with the hashing power if there were no mining fee.
Just visit localhost with a webbrowser and you can see live what is happening to your account and why.
Right now it only works with HashNest, there is no intention of adding anywhere else at this time.
Primarily it works because the maintenance fee is offset by the buying & selling of hashing power on the market.
The end goal is to at least allow you to cloud mine without a maintenance fee.
This should effectively suck the marrow from the bones of the cloudmining markets.
Any additional earnings are great and the multiplier controls the aggressiveness of the trading activity, but obviously there are no guarantees.
Running the initial prototype over the last 24hrs, I've managed to cut the effective maintenance fee on 20 THS of S3 to less than 50%. While it did not reach targets it did essentially double my profits on the day. Giving me the power of 20 THS of S5 for the cost of 20 THS of S3.
This was just about the simplest algorithm I could come up with.
I know that better ones can be created, so I plan to revamp the core over the weekend and release the software to a test group for independent verification of results. I also plan to create a "pluggable brain", to allow you to create custom trading logic, to reach your own goals.
Long term I want to commercialize the trading bot, and build a community of "modders" who make the "custom pluggable brains", but short term I need more resources than I presently have in order to test just what I have now.
If you have a HashNest account, a reliable Internet connection and are willing to assume an enormous degree of risk, I'd like to talk to you about joining one of the testing groups. I say the risk is enormous because this is essentially untested, unproven software you will be handing over control of your HashNest account to. As we move towards commercial release, the risk becomes less and less but...
Don't be stupid, make sure you only use it with funds you are willing to lose.
The plan is to have 3 testing groups, alpha, beta & gamma which will launch over the next 90 days.
The Alpha Group will receive the software for free for life. It is limited to 10 people, which is the maximum number of people I feel like I can adequately support at this time. The alpha test period is expected to last 21 days, but may run longer if problems are detected. During this time, I would like daily feedback about the performance of the software as well as ease of use and stability.
The Beta Group will receive the software for free during the beta period only, after which a permanent license can be obtained for 1 BTC. The license will grant usage on one machine indefinitely and access to all future upgrades gratis. This will be limited to 25 people, the licensing fee will allow me to begin recruiting support personnel. It starts 7 days after the end of the Alpha period. Beta is also limited to 21 days, but may go longer if problems are uncovered.
The Gamma Group (Early Commercial Adopters) will be an invitation only pre-launch exercise. Gamma launches 7 days after the end of beta. The group will be limited to 100 users. The expectation is to charge an annual fee of 5 BTC, this will cover initial deployment during testing, but also give access to a permanently reduced annual licensing fee of 6 BTC. Support is of course included.
The final product will retail for a monthly licensing fee of 1BTC or an annual license of 10 BTC.
The licensing component is in place to provide continued support and will allow you to install community supplied "pluggable brain" mods from a market place. Community members can charge whatever they like for their mods and receive payment automatically.
If you would like to join one of the testing groups please feel free to mention it here.
Sign up is first come, first serve. I will send you a PM on Monday or Tuesday with detailed instructions.
Well I made a deposit of 1 BTC just a few minutes before the announce.
https://blockchain.info/tx/ff7b0523e2f197c5b5e4095cc056939c246f09d460700e2c475663949105f1d5
Took a bit, but eventually it credited. I immediately put in a withdrawal request and it looked like it worked. Only time will tell if I get ever actually get my coin back. But here's hoping!
Will update here if/when it does.
https://blockchain.info/tx/ff7b0523e2f197c5b5e4095cc056939c246f09d460700e2c475663949105f1d5
Took a bit, but eventually it credited. I immediately put in a withdrawal request and it looked like it worked. Only time will tell if I get ever actually get my coin back. But here's hoping!
Will update here if/when it does.
This is up on their site:
Opinions?
Quote
Hello Users,
Today (11/05/2015) the electricity of our data center hosting our ASICs was shutoff halting our mining operations temporarily. According to our provider, there are irregularities in our contracts that were found during an audit.
We have our lawyers on the case looking to resolve the issue as soon as possible.
While the lawyers do their thing, our hands are tied leaving us not much to do but wait. The provider isn't breaking any laws yet, law says they have 72 hours to reestablish the energy.
We will keep you updated.
Today (11/05/2015) the electricity of our data center hosting our ASICs was shutoff halting our mining operations temporarily. According to our provider, there are irregularities in our contracts that were found during an audit.
We have our lawyers on the case looking to resolve the issue as soon as possible.
While the lawyers do their thing, our hands are tied leaving us not much to do but wait. The provider isn't breaking any laws yet, law says they have 72 hours to reestablish the energy.
We will keep you updated.
Opinions?
Well I'm kinda wishing I hadn't sent 1 BTC there 10 minutes prior to that message going up.
I woke up yesterday morning with a strong sense that something was up, so I moved all of my coins out.
There was no problem.
Decided to move just 1 BTC back over since I figured, what the heck I can afford to lose 1 if it turns out they do go under.
Now they've gone the way of all bitcoin mining systems. Was kind of hoping it would be at least a few days before they did that though.
I hope I can still withdraw once my BTC deposit manages to land. Looking on blockchain.info it still hasn't credited despite being well over 3 confirms...
https://blockchain.info/tx/ff7b0523e2f197c5b5e4095cc056939c246f09d460700e2c475663949105f1d5
Usually, the deposits move somewhere else then credit, so I'm holding out hope there is just a slight interruption to service and nothing major here.
Really glad it was ONLY 1 BTC.
Paying 0.01-0.02 BTC for each good idea. I write articles and I need ideas to write.
Rule #1: Don't find news already written. This means going on CoinDesk or Google, or the Press section and finding something already done
Rule #2: I only pay if I use your idea. Almost all good ideas will be written about.
The point is to be unique. I'm not going to pay for something that has already been thought of.
Some examples are: "Comparison of upcoming decentralized social networks", or, "Why Faucets Aren't Worth Your Time".
Rule #1: Don't find news already written. This means going on CoinDesk or Google, or the Press section and finding something already done
Rule #2: I only pay if I use your idea. Almost all good ideas will be written about.
The point is to be unique. I'm not going to pay for something that has already been thought of.
Some examples are: "Comparison of upcoming decentralized social networks", or, "Why Faucets Aren't Worth Your Time".
An article detailing the lives of people who actually work for bitcoin instead of fiat.
Or better yet, try living exclusively with BTC as your money and blog about that.
Living off bitcoin is technically possible. I saw on a local classified ad there was a gentleman offering to do people shopping etc for payment in bitcoin. Pretty cool idea.
Well I'm a fulltime professional systems architect. I live in an area with several bitcoin ATMs. Many of my projects are related to bitcoin or utilize bitcoin related tech. I recently told my work to start paying me in bitcoins. My kids christmas this year was entirely purchased by bitcoins. So I may have been a bit biased when I mentioned it
Paying 0.01-0.02 BTC for each good idea. I write articles and I need ideas to write.
Rule #1: Don't find news already written. This means going on CoinDesk or Google, or the Press section and finding something already done
Rule #2: I only pay if I use your idea. Almost all good ideas will be written about.
The point is to be unique. I'm not going to pay for something that has already been thought of.
Some examples are: "Comparison of upcoming decentralized social networks", or, "Why Faucets Aren't Worth Your Time".
Rule #1: Don't find news already written. This means going on CoinDesk or Google, or the Press section and finding something already done
Rule #2: I only pay if I use your idea. Almost all good ideas will be written about.
The point is to be unique. I'm not going to pay for something that has already been thought of.
Some examples are: "Comparison of upcoming decentralized social networks", or, "Why Faucets Aren't Worth Your Time".
An article detailing the lives of people who actually work for bitcoin instead of fiat.
Or better yet, try living exclusively with BTC as your money and blog about that.
Not sure if this is helpful or not, but IPN is trivial to implement.
Almost all cryptos use the same config files and there are block and transaction notifiers that can be set in there so when a transaction occurs that effects your wallet it can do a call out to a given URL to notify you. Then you just query the JSON API for details.
This allows you to manage your own funds however you wish, and you aren't relying on someone else's infrastructure.
The downside is that you have to standup, secure and manage a server for each coin.
An alternative might be to leverage one of the exchanges since I think nearly all of them offer the ability to generate a deposit address and also the ability to be notified when deposits come in. But then you are at the mercy of the exchange which may go belly up and day taking your funds with it among other possible issues.
Another problem with exchanges is they usually give you one address that hangs around until a deposit comes in. This sounds great until you realize that you need 1 per customer, per deposit REQUEST. If 2 or more customers are trying to deposit in roughly the same time frame, they might see the same address and then you're spending the night sorting out who sent what manually.
Almost all cryptos use the same config files and there are block and transaction notifiers that can be set in there so when a transaction occurs that effects your wallet it can do a call out to a given URL to notify you. Then you just query the JSON API for details.
This allows you to manage your own funds however you wish, and you aren't relying on someone else's infrastructure.
The downside is that you have to standup, secure and manage a server for each coin.
An alternative might be to leverage one of the exchanges since I think nearly all of them offer the ability to generate a deposit address and also the ability to be notified when deposits come in. But then you are at the mercy of the exchange which may go belly up and day taking your funds with it among other possible issues.
Another problem with exchanges is they usually give you one address that hangs around until a deposit comes in. This sounds great until you realize that you need 1 per customer, per deposit REQUEST. If 2 or more customers are trying to deposit in roughly the same time frame, they might see the same address and then you're spending the night sorting out who sent what manually.
Re: New here, want feedback on an idea and not sure where to post.
It's not going to succeed - sorry. Employers and freelancers will want to use the cheapest and most convenient payment method. Hint: it's not bitcoin.
Thanks for the advice.
We should probably move this part of the discussion to the linked thread, but I have no idea how to do that, or if it's even possible, so I'll reply here instead.
There are millions of reasons why this idea might not succeed, the fact that people have actually done this before and now many of the domains are just parked does not bode well in my opinion.
However, using bitcoin as a payment method is not one of the potential failure mechanisms that I forsee.
The issue of volatility is addressed at least in part by strict, sharp, short timelines between bidding and payment.
In fact, considering that there are many, many advantages to bitcoin payment such as no chargebacks, rapid turn around time, allowing commerce to occur between people in countries that are not nessecarily warm with eachother. I consider it a strength not a weakness.
As a project lead, getting my project done on time and on budget has always been priority one.
Getting accountability from the system and have strong guarantees on deliverables is extremely attractive to people working within a defined time frame.
You may not be able to use the site to build the next ill defined Web 3.0 nebulous cloud wunder whatever site, especially if you don't have strong planning skills. But if you needed to get a plugin for a custom file type into your in-house media server, and the dev team is busy putting out fires in the 2.0 branch.
Something like this could be ideal, especially as bitcoin takes off.
You'd be surprised how often that actually occurs.
The flipside for the freelancer is quick projects with guaranteed payment which results in a lack of that "burned out" feeling you get from being associated with mega-projects that drag on forever.
I'm realistic though, I don't expect this to be the next multi-billion dollar, bitcoin related, Winklevoss funded startup.
Just a community thing where people can come, earn some quick cash, or get help for projects of decent complexity.
Re: Does listtransactions show all Transactions on the Bitcoin network?
If you need all transactions since the beginning of time, just write a script to use the JSON RPC API to and call "get best block" then increment through the blocks from 1 to n (best block). For each block grab the transactions.
This will result in a HUGE dataset. Most people don't need all this historical data. They either want a live feed of current transactions or a list of unspent transactions.
BitcoinJ has an implementation in their sample code that can get you the later and stuff it into a popular RDBMS for later querying.
No idea what to do about the live feed short of opening up a port and listening to the network.
This will result in a HUGE dataset. Most people don't need all this historical data. They either want a live feed of current transactions or a list of unspent transactions.
BitcoinJ has an implementation in their sample code that can get you the later and stuff it into a popular RDBMS for later querying.
No idea what to do about the live feed short of opening up a port and listening to the network.
Just hopped in IRC for a few minutes and posited a similar (but for more more brief) version of the idea.
It seems that the all or nothing aspect is really a lot more offputting than I had assumed it would be.
Turns out, that working for an entire week and not getting paid for it, perhaps as often as 4 out of every 5 tries, could really be a problem from a practical standpoint.
I had assumed that if you were really that bad, you would look to improve really quick or perhaps only bother to bid on something you have a great deal more skill in.
Money is a great motivator for me and lack of money has always been an fearsome teacher.
I guess most people see it differently.
As it happens though the root cause of some of the "gaming the system" problems mentioned earlier directly stems from the lone wolf.
Teams are the best defense without resorting to stupidly draconian methods such as limiting based on IP address (not possible in most college settings and even many cell carriers are giving everyone the same IP)
I think I'm really just opposed to the concept of long term persistent teams
seriously I'm a freelancer, if wanted to be part of a long lived team I'd go get a real job.
Even worse is automatically creating a team from randomly selected mates.
There is the real risk of the team members not even being able to feel out roles before the milestone is over.
We had a class in "team building' once that had a similar problem, the team members were assigned by random draw and in a week the entire team had to come up with a presentation and present it to everyone else. The end result was not good. As they say "too many chefs spoil the soup".
Maybe it doesn't have to be one or the other, perhaps there are other possibilities not previously considered.
The first which I'm considering, is based on a game I played years ago and resulted in some really good teams. (and many real projects narrowly avoiding slipped delivery dates)
A team was comprised of a leader/coordinator, and 4 or more functionary members. I say functionary because each member is given a specific role based upon their experience and capabilities. In the game, a team leader was just the first person who decided "Hey I think I'll start a team". That person would then select the roles they needed to have filled. For instance (drawing from that same popular MMO) a team would be comprised of a Tank, a Healer, a Direct Damage Dealer, and someone with stealth capabilities. The tank would take the MOB on 1 to one to keep it occupied, the DDD would nuke the MOB to bring it down quickly, the stealth guy would run around opening chests and grabbing loot, while the healer would try to keep everyone alive.
Generally these are pickup groups and they would form, go on a mission or two and split up.
While we aren't talking about crawling dungeons and raiding treasure chests, there are some striking similarities.
What makes a leader capable of leading is the desire to lead and the confidence to pull it off. To be a leader you must know what you need in team members and if we added a "social" aspect to the site. It shouldn't be much harder to create a team on the site, than it was in the aforementioned game.
The team leader from each team could bid and a single team would be selected at random during the bid process instead of 5 individuals.
The team as whole is given 1 week to pull off the milestone. The milestone payment is then automatically split amongst the team members at the end of the milestone according to the method that all members agreed upon before joining the team. (in otherwords, the split could be varied, but you would be guaranteed the split you were offered).
The biggest difference here, is that there is only a single team selected, there is only a single target delivered (instead of 5), 360 feedback from other team members is given at the end, and if anything at all is delivered, then payment becomes mandatory. Everyone gets paid. We may need a community dispute resolution team yada, yada, yada...
To prevent perma-teams, a team would exist for a single milestone and then be split up. They would need to go a fixed amount of time (perhaps a month or so) before working with any of the others again.
By not allowing the same 5 people to continue in a team beyond the space of a single milestone, it should prevent much of the gaming of the system. It would also promote co-operation and socializing which may turn out to be an important aspect in terms of keeping eyeballs on the site.
It seems that the all or nothing aspect is really a lot more offputting than I had assumed it would be.
Turns out, that working for an entire week and not getting paid for it, perhaps as often as 4 out of every 5 tries, could really be a problem from a practical standpoint.
I had assumed that if you were really that bad, you would look to improve really quick or perhaps only bother to bid on something you have a great deal more skill in.
Money is a great motivator for me and lack of money has always been an fearsome teacher.
I guess most people see it differently.
As it happens though the root cause of some of the "gaming the system" problems mentioned earlier directly stems from the lone wolf.
Teams are the best defense without resorting to stupidly draconian methods such as limiting based on IP address (not possible in most college settings and even many cell carriers are giving everyone the same IP)
I think I'm really just opposed to the concept of long term persistent teams
seriously I'm a freelancer, if wanted to be part of a long lived team I'd go get a real job.
Even worse is automatically creating a team from randomly selected mates.
There is the real risk of the team members not even being able to feel out roles before the milestone is over.
We had a class in "team building' once that had a similar problem, the team members were assigned by random draw and in a week the entire team had to come up with a presentation and present it to everyone else. The end result was not good. As they say "too many chefs spoil the soup".
Maybe it doesn't have to be one or the other, perhaps there are other possibilities not previously considered.
The first which I'm considering, is based on a game I played years ago and resulted in some really good teams. (and many real projects narrowly avoiding slipped delivery dates)
A team was comprised of a leader/coordinator, and 4 or more functionary members. I say functionary because each member is given a specific role based upon their experience and capabilities. In the game, a team leader was just the first person who decided "Hey I think I'll start a team". That person would then select the roles they needed to have filled. For instance (drawing from that same popular MMO) a team would be comprised of a Tank, a Healer, a Direct Damage Dealer, and someone with stealth capabilities. The tank would take the MOB on 1 to one to keep it occupied, the DDD would nuke the MOB to bring it down quickly, the stealth guy would run around opening chests and grabbing loot, while the healer would try to keep everyone alive.
Generally these are pickup groups and they would form, go on a mission or two and split up.
While we aren't talking about crawling dungeons and raiding treasure chests, there are some striking similarities.
What makes a leader capable of leading is the desire to lead and the confidence to pull it off. To be a leader you must know what you need in team members and if we added a "social" aspect to the site. It shouldn't be much harder to create a team on the site, than it was in the aforementioned game.
The team leader from each team could bid and a single team would be selected at random during the bid process instead of 5 individuals.
The team as whole is given 1 week to pull off the milestone. The milestone payment is then automatically split amongst the team members at the end of the milestone according to the method that all members agreed upon before joining the team. (in otherwords, the split could be varied, but you would be guaranteed the split you were offered).
The biggest difference here, is that there is only a single team selected, there is only a single target delivered (instead of 5), 360 feedback from other team members is given at the end, and if anything at all is delivered, then payment becomes mandatory. Everyone gets paid. We may need a community dispute resolution team yada, yada, yada...
To prevent perma-teams, a team would exist for a single milestone and then be split up. They would need to go a fixed amount of time (perhaps a month or so) before working with any of the others again.
By not allowing the same 5 people to continue in a team beyond the space of a single milestone, it should prevent much of the gaming of the system. It would also promote co-operation and socializing which may turn out to be an important aspect in terms of keeping eyeballs on the site.
Re: Crowdsourcing: Ideas and direction as a wannabe bitcoin enabler.
I think we have a real synergy of ideas here.
You aren't money laundering, you are, simply prepaying for boatloads of coffee and then reselling them.
FYI..
Blockchain.info has an api to enable you to generate unique payment addresses on the fly, send you a notification of payment received and forward coins to wherever you like.
It's pretty easy to use if you know what you're doing. You just need to make sure you implement it securely & correctly to avoid the off chance that someone might rob you for a cup of coffee
I was about to build a payment terminal that leverages this as a component of different project. You can run it in a browser, or on an android tablet. No funds are kept on the payment terminal so security is a natch by design even if someone walks off with the machinery they won't get your coins or even any info on how to get at them.
I'll be glad to sell you a custom copy and even set it up and maintain it for you for 1 BTC (this money goes to developing the ideas in my freelancing for BTC post here... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=941654.0 )
From a non-technical standpoint, you would do wise to promote bitcoin as an alternative to cash handling. Cash handing is expensive especially in higher crime areas, I know you're in a small college town, but people everywhere are scared of robbery. Not saying you should use fear tactics, but use the power of bitcoin to reduce their fear of the potential for a robbery. Very little cash on hand means very little incentive to rob, loot & plunder. (Stick 'em up and give me all yer satoshis) is not likely to be anything you hear from any but the government any time soon.
You aren't money laundering, you are, simply prepaying for boatloads of coffee and then reselling them.
FYI..
Blockchain.info has an api to enable you to generate unique payment addresses on the fly, send you a notification of payment received and forward coins to wherever you like.
It's pretty easy to use if you know what you're doing. You just need to make sure you implement it securely & correctly to avoid the off chance that someone might rob you for a cup of coffee
I was about to build a payment terminal that leverages this as a component of different project. You can run it in a browser, or on an android tablet. No funds are kept on the payment terminal so security is a natch by design even if someone walks off with the machinery they won't get your coins or even any info on how to get at them.
I'll be glad to sell you a custom copy and even set it up and maintain it for you for 1 BTC (this money goes to developing the ideas in my freelancing for BTC post here... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=941654.0 )
From a non-technical standpoint, you would do wise to promote bitcoin as an alternative to cash handling. Cash handing is expensive especially in higher crime areas, I know you're in a small college town, but people everywhere are scared of robbery. Not saying you should use fear tactics, but use the power of bitcoin to reduce their fear of the potential for a robbery. Very little cash on hand means very little incentive to rob, loot & plunder. (Stick 'em up and give me all yer satoshis) is not likely to be anything you hear from any but the government any time soon.
Re: New here, want feedback on an idea and not sure where to post.
even if your idea isn't a new one you should definitely give it a go. bitcoin motivates so much people to launch amazing startups. the more the better.
Posted it here, excited to hear your thoughts.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=941654.0
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
For the purposes of this largish posting, please consider yourself to be an owner and feel free to take up fair and opinionated positions on either side of the coin.
I am looking for feedback on an idea I have, but I want to give you some background first.
During a recent period with nothing else on my plate, I realized that it would be interesting to explore the idea of building a freelancing site.
I've seen freelancer, odesk and even a few bitcoin enabled clones of the above, but none of them have really struck me as ideal.
So I'm starting this thread about creating a bitcoin enabled freelancing site. What features it should have, what are the best rules for operating it etc.
Bitcoin has some interesting characteristics relating to market volatility that make working purely for BTC very, very hard at times.
By the time your project completes, your funds might be worth pennies or millions. It can be really random and disconcerting.
It can also be the perfect way to get paid once you control forex risk factors.
Freelancing sites come with their own issues that tend to encourage a race to the bottom in terms of both quality of people and quality of projects.
There's also the whole "You've done the work, we have your money and now here are 30 hoops you need to jump through if you ever want to see your paycheck", junk that I've seen many of these sites pull in the interests of protecting the world from the decepticons or whatever.
Besides the risk from the site pulling a fast one on you, there is also the risk that at any time, the creator of a project can simply decide not to fund/pay you and suddenly you are stuck with really nowhere to turn.
Freelance sites have to cater to creators, but also need to offer talent. Unfortunately talent is subjective. Having been on both sides of the freelancer equation (project creator and project worker), I've seen the most astonishing lack of clarity, direction and competency from both sides, that you can possibly imagine.
Scope creep is incredibly common, as a worker I have seen project after project experience scope creep because there was no clear delineation of what a milestone entails.
As a worker you have to be very careful not to deliver too quickly or too slowly. If you deliver too quickly then I can guarantee the project initiator will increase his expectations for that milestone. If you deliver too slowly, in many cases they just won't pay.
On the flip side, as a project initiator you have to deal with workers who boast qualifications that they copy/pasted from your description when in fact they've never even heard of some of the technologies, let alone have any competence. Many sites allow you to specify skillsets that the worker must then at least test for. Then the site charges the worker money to take the test, sadly most are worthless.
In other words, it's really hard to find good help, who will work cheaply and quickly while producing excellence.
Also, excellence is entirely subjective as are the other terms.
Having been a development manager in a previous life, I know that with a bit of coaching, any worker who is willing to learn, can be taught about any skill. The flipside of that, is that I don't want the worker building his skills on my dime.
Having been a worker myself, I know that in many cases, projects get riddled with buzzword soup and just because I ran out space on a page to list skills doesn't mean I can't pick it up quickly enough to be useful to the project.
The solution? Let's build our own and do it right this time!
There are 4 driving themes in all of the things I've mentioned.
#1 Scope
#2 Payment
#3 Opportunity (skill can only demonstrated through opportunity)
#4 Time
I believe that if one can tightly control all four variables in a freelancing site, that the user experience on both sides of the isle could be greatly improved.
I call this the SPOT problem for obvious reasons.
I'm hardly perfect. I am very opinionated. I have a diploma from the school of hard knocks and I've got the lumps to prove it.
I think my proposal is a good one. It involves controlling scope by limiting time.
A project is composed of milestones. A milestone is exactly 5 days.
Scope: The project creator creates the project, assigns it a project budget and breaks that budget up into weekly chunks.
Payment: When the first milestone is funded then we say it has been "initiated".
Opportunity: Everyone can bid on any milestone and 5 are selected randomly
Time: Once selected, a worker has exactly 5 days to deliver the project milestone.
This is a competition of sorts, and the only one paid is the one who's work is selected by the project creator as "meeting or exceeding requirements".
(there is a flaw right here, but let's assume the creator is honest for now, since I don't yet have a way to deal with self dealing to get free workers, I will explain more later on)
Advantages of this approach..
For the worker, they are always paid exactly what they bid for their work, period.
For the creator, they are always charged exactly what they budget, period.
If there aren't 5 bidders then the milestone's bidding period is extended until there are 5.
A bidder can elect to drop out at any time with no penalty up until the close of bidding.
If a worker bids outside the budget range their bid will be rejected instantly, it is up to them to determine what their time is worth.
Project initiators are encouraged to limit milestone scope to only what can be delivered within a total of 7 days (5 days work, plus 1 day bidding and 1 day critique/selection)
Disadvantages of this approach...
There is an 80% chance for a worker that they will work their butt off for a week and receive nothing. There is a critique/feedback system in place to show someone how they could have improved and the selection rejection process mandates the creator critique submitted work. But yes as a worker, you have an 80% chance of having learned new skills or improved upon existing ones on your own dime.
There is a non-zero chance that the project creator will get 5 bot-like junk bids, sadly this increases proportional to site popularity.
There is also a non-zero chance that workers may create sock-puppet accounts to try and increase odds of being selected or paid.
Questionable ponderings...
Now assume that the project creator does not select anyone. Is it fair that they pay anyways?
My opinion is that it's fair. This is sunk money. I'm open to ideas on controlling this though.
If the creator does not select anyone, then who should get paid?
No matter which way we turn, there is an opportunity for the creator to game the system by double dealing.
Admittedly there is some incentive there for double dealing by creating fake accounts on both sides, but since feedback is solely for personal growth and not a public thing at all, the normal incentive is sharply negated. But it still leaves open the possibility of "selecting" your sock puppet while actually utilizing someone else's work. Open to ideas here...
You don't get to see the qualifications, and there is no feedback system for workers.
The people selected, either deliver to your satisfaction, and it's done on time and on budget or they don't.
On the workers side, we want to guarantee payment for work delivered and encourage quality work and fair pay.
This is why neither worker, nor initiator are aware of the other's financial picture. We can't stop them talking to one another, but since we all know that someone is not going to be selected unless their bid is less than the project budget, does the worker really want to let the initiator know (hey you could have saved $5 by going direct?) If that's the case then they both lose the protection of using the site, and we lose 2 customers at least temporarily.
I do wonder if this is the right approach which is why I'm bringing it up here.
An alternative I have considered is that instead of "all or nothing" with 5 people in direct competition with eachother, that each person is joined to a team and the team splits the highest bid evenly, or even according to a rate & rank system. The idea of everyone working together on a team, has it's appeal as does winner take all. The budget and time limitations being what they are though, I figure that teams may crop up on their own if they are beneficial.
On the bitcoin side of things I think that bitcoin technology can be leveraged to make this all happen. I am very interested in hearing what parts of bitcoin other than a coinbase style "pay in coins and get a check for fiat" might help this along. I'm not familiar with all aspects of bitcoin, but I do know that in reality it's just a giant database that can be written to, and contracts can exist that are fully enforced by the blockchain.
Satoshi for your thoughts???
For the purposes of this largish posting, please consider yourself to be an owner and feel free to take up fair and opinionated positions on either side of the coin.
I am looking for feedback on an idea I have, but I want to give you some background first.
During a recent period with nothing else on my plate, I realized that it would be interesting to explore the idea of building a freelancing site.
I've seen freelancer, odesk and even a few bitcoin enabled clones of the above, but none of them have really struck me as ideal.
So I'm starting this thread about creating a bitcoin enabled freelancing site. What features it should have, what are the best rules for operating it etc.
Bitcoin has some interesting characteristics relating to market volatility that make working purely for BTC very, very hard at times.
By the time your project completes, your funds might be worth pennies or millions. It can be really random and disconcerting.
It can also be the perfect way to get paid once you control forex risk factors.
Freelancing sites come with their own issues that tend to encourage a race to the bottom in terms of both quality of people and quality of projects.
There's also the whole "You've done the work, we have your money and now here are 30 hoops you need to jump through if you ever want to see your paycheck", junk that I've seen many of these sites pull in the interests of protecting the world from the decepticons or whatever.
Besides the risk from the site pulling a fast one on you, there is also the risk that at any time, the creator of a project can simply decide not to fund/pay you and suddenly you are stuck with really nowhere to turn.
Freelance sites have to cater to creators, but also need to offer talent. Unfortunately talent is subjective. Having been on both sides of the freelancer equation (project creator and project worker), I've seen the most astonishing lack of clarity, direction and competency from both sides, that you can possibly imagine.
Scope creep is incredibly common, as a worker I have seen project after project experience scope creep because there was no clear delineation of what a milestone entails.
As a worker you have to be very careful not to deliver too quickly or too slowly. If you deliver too quickly then I can guarantee the project initiator will increase his expectations for that milestone. If you deliver too slowly, in many cases they just won't pay.
On the flip side, as a project initiator you have to deal with workers who boast qualifications that they copy/pasted from your description when in fact they've never even heard of some of the technologies, let alone have any competence. Many sites allow you to specify skillsets that the worker must then at least test for. Then the site charges the worker money to take the test, sadly most are worthless.
In other words, it's really hard to find good help, who will work cheaply and quickly while producing excellence.
Also, excellence is entirely subjective as are the other terms.
Having been a development manager in a previous life, I know that with a bit of coaching, any worker who is willing to learn, can be taught about any skill. The flipside of that, is that I don't want the worker building his skills on my dime.
Having been a worker myself, I know that in many cases, projects get riddled with buzzword soup and just because I ran out space on a page to list skills doesn't mean I can't pick it up quickly enough to be useful to the project.
The solution? Let's build our own and do it right this time!
There are 4 driving themes in all of the things I've mentioned.
#1 Scope
#2 Payment
#3 Opportunity (skill can only demonstrated through opportunity)
#4 Time
I believe that if one can tightly control all four variables in a freelancing site, that the user experience on both sides of the isle could be greatly improved.
I call this the SPOT problem for obvious reasons.
I'm hardly perfect. I am very opinionated. I have a diploma from the school of hard knocks and I've got the lumps to prove it.
I think my proposal is a good one. It involves controlling scope by limiting time.
A project is composed of milestones. A milestone is exactly 5 days.
Scope: The project creator creates the project, assigns it a project budget and breaks that budget up into weekly chunks.
Payment: When the first milestone is funded then we say it has been "initiated".
Opportunity: Everyone can bid on any milestone and 5 are selected randomly
Time: Once selected, a worker has exactly 5 days to deliver the project milestone.
This is a competition of sorts, and the only one paid is the one who's work is selected by the project creator as "meeting or exceeding requirements".
(there is a flaw right here, but let's assume the creator is honest for now, since I don't yet have a way to deal with self dealing to get free workers, I will explain more later on)
Advantages of this approach..
For the worker, they are always paid exactly what they bid for their work, period.
For the creator, they are always charged exactly what they budget, period.
If there aren't 5 bidders then the milestone's bidding period is extended until there are 5.
A bidder can elect to drop out at any time with no penalty up until the close of bidding.
If a worker bids outside the budget range their bid will be rejected instantly, it is up to them to determine what their time is worth.
Project initiators are encouraged to limit milestone scope to only what can be delivered within a total of 7 days (5 days work, plus 1 day bidding and 1 day critique/selection)
Disadvantages of this approach...
There is an 80% chance for a worker that they will work their butt off for a week and receive nothing. There is a critique/feedback system in place to show someone how they could have improved and the selection rejection process mandates the creator critique submitted work. But yes as a worker, you have an 80% chance of having learned new skills or improved upon existing ones on your own dime.
There is a non-zero chance that the project creator will get 5 bot-like junk bids, sadly this increases proportional to site popularity.
There is also a non-zero chance that workers may create sock-puppet accounts to try and increase odds of being selected or paid.
Questionable ponderings...
Now assume that the project creator does not select anyone. Is it fair that they pay anyways?
My opinion is that it's fair. This is sunk money. I'm open to ideas on controlling this though.
If the creator does not select anyone, then who should get paid?
No matter which way we turn, there is an opportunity for the creator to game the system by double dealing.
Admittedly there is some incentive there for double dealing by creating fake accounts on both sides, but since feedback is solely for personal growth and not a public thing at all, the normal incentive is sharply negated. But it still leaves open the possibility of "selecting" your sock puppet while actually utilizing someone else's work. Open to ideas here...
You don't get to see the qualifications, and there is no feedback system for workers.
The people selected, either deliver to your satisfaction, and it's done on time and on budget or they don't.
On the workers side, we want to guarantee payment for work delivered and encourage quality work and fair pay.
This is why neither worker, nor initiator are aware of the other's financial picture. We can't stop them talking to one another, but since we all know that someone is not going to be selected unless their bid is less than the project budget, does the worker really want to let the initiator know (hey you could have saved $5 by going direct?) If that's the case then they both lose the protection of using the site, and we lose 2 customers at least temporarily.
I do wonder if this is the right approach which is why I'm bringing it up here.
An alternative I have considered is that instead of "all or nothing" with 5 people in direct competition with eachother, that each person is joined to a team and the team splits the highest bid evenly, or even according to a rate & rank system. The idea of everyone working together on a team, has it's appeal as does winner take all. The budget and time limitations being what they are though, I figure that teams may crop up on their own if they are beneficial.
On the bitcoin side of things I think that bitcoin technology can be leveraged to make this all happen. I am very interested in hearing what parts of bitcoin other than a coinbase style "pay in coins and get a check for fiat" might help this along. I'm not familiar with all aspects of bitcoin, but I do know that in reality it's just a giant database that can be written to, and contracts can exist that are fully enforced by the blockchain.
Satoshi for your thoughts???
Re: New here, want feedback on an idea and not sure where to post.
Without telling what you really want to do, it's difficult to tell, but I think the project development subforum (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=12.0) is the place you're looking for.
Onkel Paul
Onkel Paul
Haha! Cool i've never noticed that one before, but it is perfect! Thank you so much!
I can be a bit more specific in here I guess, I didn't realize that there might actually be any interest expressed in this section.
Probably my OCD trying to categorize and compartmentalize everything again
It's kind of a big idea, but comes down to...
"If you could help determine the featureset of a freelancing site, with the understanding that all payments occur in exclusively in bitcoin and payment is always guaranteed, what would you put in it?"
Yes I realize the idea has been done before. I have ideas to do it differently. More importantly, I want community input, since I find it likely that the earliest users of the site would be found here.
Thanks for the help, I'll post the actual question in the forum linked and then post a link back here.
New here, want feedback on an idea and not sure where to post.
Apologies if I am in the wrong forum here, I am new in this place and not sure where else to ask.
I've been watching bitcointalk forum for several months, but never registered.
I have an idea to build something bitcoin related.
I searched and I didn't see much related to my idea, the few items I did find were announcements of websites (many defunct) and I wasn't interested in resurrecting those threads just to hijack them. They were all in announcements too, which doesn't seem to be the right place to ask questions of the community.
Bitcointalk seems like the right place to start a discussion on the topic of building anything, bitcoiny.
I just can't find the right subforum or area to post my idea & questions in.
I need a place to bounce ideas off and see what sticks and what doesn't.
Mostly I just want to talk about features that are important to people in the bitcoin community that would make this idea attractive overall.
Maybe get a good discussion going and if enough interest is there, try to build it and see what happens.
So if anyone can point me to the right forum to start the discussion, I will compose my thoughts and try to start an intelligent thread.
Oh and it's not an altcoin or fork, just a new service that utilizes bitcoin as payment method.
Thank you
I've been watching bitcointalk forum for several months, but never registered.
I have an idea to build something bitcoin related.
I searched and I didn't see much related to my idea, the few items I did find were announcements of websites (many defunct) and I wasn't interested in resurrecting those threads just to hijack them. They were all in announcements too, which doesn't seem to be the right place to ask questions of the community.
Bitcointalk seems like the right place to start a discussion on the topic of building anything, bitcoiny.
I just can't find the right subforum or area to post my idea & questions in.
I need a place to bounce ideas off and see what sticks and what doesn't.
Mostly I just want to talk about features that are important to people in the bitcoin community that would make this idea attractive overall.
Maybe get a good discussion going and if enough interest is there, try to build it and see what happens.
So if anyone can point me to the right forum to start the discussion, I will compose my thoughts and try to start an intelligent thread.
Oh and it's not an altcoin or fork, just a new service that utilizes bitcoin as payment method.
Thank you