Humans:

I'm for mom and pop stores.


You leave, They go to Walmart and vote with their pocket book.

This is the past, present and future.

Ripple wins as currency, it's free to send.

When want to be anonymous you use 1 of the 100's of untraceable alt-coins.

This isn't very hard.

BTC is going to fail.

Hey, I'm for the movement, F- Gov's etc. But BTC isn't a currency...by its own choice. It's for high value transaction and store of value. Well, a better high value transaction coin will come along so there goes that. Store of value only option left. I bet if the 1st leaves, the 2nd will never be.

I now take everything except bitcoin. Fees became too high.

I guess I’d use it if you are ok with a normal $1 fixture costing $31.

So far no customers have agreed. They spend $1 usd and expect $1 back in value. As of now that doesn’t exist.

I own a business. As in I do. I own a plumbing shop.

So plumbers pay me via lightning channel.

1) Ummm, when do I actually get my btc?

2) since I know the answer to #1. I charge 20% more for btc/lightning.

3) Would love answers to this.


You being sold snake oil 2.0.

Don’t think of yourself as a payee. Think of yourself as the biz owner. Lightning? Really? Just sell my store goods for an iou?

It’s an iou until it hits the blockchain. How much it cost to hit the blockchain twice for a sandwich?

Bitcoin is doomed. Please please tell me why it’s not

So how did the phone company receive their payment. It’s an iou promise until channel closes. To close channel need to pay big fees.

I'm talking right this second.

Segwit will fix all. Implemented and? Nope.

At least BCH fixed the "right this second problem." At least they are trying to make a global currency for everyone.

BTC doesn't care about that.

Now talking future.

Lightening will fix everything. Well, your 1st lie didn't come true so not gonna believe this one.

There is a problem right now. Fix that. BCH did.

Try to use BTC and try to use BCH.

This is a fact, not opinion.

1 is usable right now. not tomorrow, not 5 years away, as in 5 seconds ago.

BTC is unusable.

It will be fee based. Right now they get 12.5 btc for the block and 3-8 btc for the fee so block rewards are sometimes 21 btc total.

This will drop to 3-10 btc in fees. Tech and power consumption will be very minor relative to today when this happens.

Also, this is why bitcoin cash roadmap is superior. Unlimited transactions with cent fees each will add up to more than a 1mb fee Only block.

If everything held constant. Btc would die and bch will live due to miners switching over.

2k transactions at $10 fee each = $20k usd. This is btc

Bch Be 100k transactions at 21 cents each = $21k usd

Who cares.

"Here's an instant fix." BCH. That is a fact.

Here's an instant fix. Use Bitcoin Cash. Problem solved. 20 Satoshi's vs. BTC 500-1000 Satoshis, aka cents vs. $20.

It’s not gdax. It’s btc is unusable as a currency/transaction. Check your tx. I bet gdax Paid 900 satashis. They pay high fees for you, it’s a btc problem.

What are the actual real world cases where a consumer business would use it? For you to receive your BTC, the channel has to close.

What are the real world uses of person to person for a channel? How long are you gong to wait to close the channel to receive your BTC?

I don't see many cases for it. Amazon maybe, but how long are they gonna not let you close the channel? They are essentially loaning you goods as they don't receive any BTC while the channel is open.

I see lightning network as the same lie as segwit. It will fix everything.....until it did nothing.

(I fully realize lightning was a 2 step process, step 1 segwit, step 2 lightning)

I got fed up with waiting a week for transaction or 3 hours for 20% fee. Bitcoin cash, once you have used it. You will never go back to core.

More and more will find this out.

“Segwit” the savior said core a year ago....nope.....they say lightning will fix everything. Well, they lied once, so until proven they can tell the truth, it’s another lie.

You are right about the hub/Gov. You can close channel and goes back to the blockchain to record latest iou records.

That’s still centralized though. No longer peer-2-peer.

And biggest question. The person receiving btc in the channel. Say 1 way channel, how long average sandwich shop owned by mom and pop gonna extend you credit? (Meaning you took meat and bread from them, they were paid in an iou they can do absolutely nothing with until channel closed.

If it were my biz. I’d raise my fees for btc by $20 a sandwich, open channel, customer would think channel open forever (or until btc balance gone) but soon as they leave. I’m closing the channel. So as the sandwich shop, cost me $10 close channel. For customer, they need wait 3 hours for channel open, pay $10 for the blockchain “open channel” then when I close it, they need to repeat.

How long that coffee shop that you go to gonna wait for thei actual btc and not iou’s?

How long your employee gonna wait for their paycheck of actual btc and not the iou’s?

How long are you gonna let the person from Craigslist take your item your selling with his iou?

Lightning is junk for peer-2-peer.

For peer-2hub-2 peer probably work pretty good. If that hub gets shut down by a government, there goes your btc you had in the channel. If that hub charges high fees? There’s goes low fees.

Lightning will fix everything if you never want your bitcoins back/received. If your/businesses are fine loaning coins forever to the channel than it will solve everything.

Hubs will have no problem doing this for a fee. This will be centralized. So if litghning does work. Decentralizing gone and or your fine having your coins on loan forever.

Scenario #2.

Lightning network runs the way it is ultimately designed. Huge spider web that connect everyone’s channels. I have channel with my friend, he has 1 with Starbucks. Multiply this to everyone and every store.

Sirens, huge problem. To hop thru other ppl’s chsnnels you have pay a fee, more importantly, their channel and every channel you hop thru has to have that balance of btc or higher.

Huge huge prob.

So private depositories will open up that have huge reserves, open a channel with them, they take care of rest as they have the funds and chsnnels with every store in the whole world.

This my friends is centralization. Give depository, 1btc, they give you back lightning iou’s  Sound familiar? Depository says give use your gold, here’s paper iou’s  

So lightning for sure is a fix. It’s just a full blown centralized digital currency.

So this miracle fix.

Question:

Say you open a channel with a friend and you put 1 btc in there. How long are you going to leave that btc locked up in that channel? Fee to open channel and wait 3 days. 1btc locked up. Fee to close channel and wait 3 days for your money/btc.

You own a coffee shop. Your customers open a channel with you and input 1 btc as their balance. How long are you going to extend them iou credit for? 30 days? How do you pay your bills in the meantime? You have $0/btc cashflow cause the channel is all iou’s  So this customer gonna pay fee to open channel, wait 3 days. Make 30 transactions. Close channel pay $$$ and wait 3 days for it to close. Because you need your real btc/payment.

So now they have to pay $$$$, to open channel again, wait 3 days and repeat.

Clap, clap, clap. Awesome fix.

Your being sold a scam (ltn) . This could work for inter-company stuff where they shift around and account for on their books, but they would just use their own coin/network/ripple at that point.

I’m in same boat. I stopped using bitcoin and switched to litecoin and BTC cash.

And FYI. Everyone who thinks lightning is the savior. Your being conned. You think Starbucks or you are just gonna never want your bitcoins? Just the iou on the lightning channel is good enough all while your real btc is locked up in the channel? So amazon just gonna lend you credit for how long? No. They are gonna want that real btc aka real $ pretty quickly. Simply speaking. If you open a channel. Other party gonna want it closed very quickly to actually get their payment in real btc. So this does nothing. Opening and closing a channel gonna cost shit ton and take forever just like now.

Lightning is the biggest scam going. Sounds awesome on paper until you actually think about how it works. Your coins get taken from you and replaced with iou’s Aka not real $.

I could see that as small niche.

The problem with that is you don't have control of the gold, it has to be insured, it has to have storage cost. So theoretically, say gold stayed $1,000 and never moved, eventually that contract aka your gold would be worth $0 due to years of fees. Costs lots of money to store physical gold and insure it.  

But that could be a great stable payment system/coin. Low volatility and not meant for store of value but 1 year or less type thing. aka checking account.

Store of value:

If BTC is accepted by the world as store of value then price will settle into a much tighter non-volatile range. This would be around $200K or so USD.

That has to happen 1st.

By that time who knows if they figured out how to use BTC core for transactions. Let's hypothetically say they don't but with lightning, 1,000 alt coins, etc, the block time for transactions are 10 minutes to the T.

I think BTC core would work better than gold as a store of value on the simple principle its divisible and can travel over the internet in 10 minutes vs. gold.

I think BTC can replaced your savings account. You withdraw from savings account 0-6 times a month.

Think of BTC as a bank/ATM in modern day. Your at lunch with friends. You go to pay "short, I don't have any cash (BTC in the future) it takes 10-30 minutes to go find an ATM. This will be the same time to transfer BTC to your friend or whoever lent you the cash for lunch.

Also, when you withdraw $20 from your ATM, your account doesn't actually have paper $20 bill in it. It has 1's and 0's. And the ATM spits out fiat and reduces your balance.


So going back to BTC as savings account to store value, when you withdraw your $20 in BTC, maybe it spits out ether, xyz coin as that xyz coin will be the cash part. (and all done via phone but just painting picture)

I can see BTC as store of value/savings account, and you convert it a few times a month to xyz coin.

BTC can be savings account, xyz coin can be checking.