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well i need a btc loan fast for an investment i am getting into and that i am 0.056 BTC short on.
Willing to send pic of my passeport for verification!
Should be able to repay in a week max.
Willing to send pic of my passeport for verification!
Should be able to repay in a week max.
Re: How to grow the Bitcoin idea and avoid that governments shut it down?
Maybe you shouldn't have given them the impression that Bitcoin is money!
But then what would be the point of my e-mail ?
The same. To introduce Bitcoin. But not describing it as money (see related thread).
I refused to follow the link after I read the URL. "Mulls printing more money" my ass! They don't print it any more. They just spend it.
I just read a factlet (but forgot the link) that the Federal Reserve has doubled the money supply during the past two years. What does this mean? It means 50% inflation coming down the pipe, guaranteed.
How monumentally stupid do you have to be to piss away half of America's productivity in just two years?
Bitcoin is something radically new. Nothing like Bitcoin has been possible until now. I would go so far as to consider it sui generis; "in its own class". This makes it important to understand what Bitcoin actually is before we try to describe it to others.
We're getting a good handle on the code, and of course on Bitcoin's function and utility, but what words should we use to describe Bitcoin itself? There has been some debate in other threads [mostly my doing] over how it is like/not like money, cash, dollars, etc. I'd like to start this thread by focusing on the term "money", and play Devil's avocate by asking for your best arguments that Bitcoin IS money.
My legal dictionary states "In usual and ordinary acceptation it [money] means gold, silver, or paper money, used as circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace notes, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate." [cites omitted]
Wikipedia says "Money is any object that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given country or socio-economic context. The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value; and, occasionally, a standard of deferred payment." [cited omitted]
Webster's Online Dictionary defines money as:
[/list]
I maintain that per these definitions, Bitcoin cannot possibly be described as "money". And further, I think that those who do describe Bitcoin as "money" are doing this community a disservice.
But that is just my point of view. Are there any that can convincingly argue otherwise, that Bitcoin IS money?
We're getting a good handle on the code, and of course on Bitcoin's function and utility, but what words should we use to describe Bitcoin itself? There has been some debate in other threads [mostly my doing] over how it is like/not like money, cash, dollars, etc. I'd like to start this thread by focusing on the term "money", and play Devil's avocate by asking for your best arguments that Bitcoin IS money.
My legal dictionary states "In usual and ordinary acceptation it [money] means gold, silver, or paper money, used as circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace notes, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate." [cites omitted]
Wikipedia says "Money is any object that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given country or socio-economic context. The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value; and, occasionally, a standard of deferred payment." [cited omitted]
Webster's Online Dictionary defines money as:
- 1. The most common medium of exchange; functions as legal tender; "we tried to collect the money he owed us".
- 2. Wealth reckoned in terms of money; "all his money is in real estate".
- 3. The official currency issued by a government or national bank; "he changed his money into francs".
- 4. A piece of metal, as gold, silver, copper, etc., coined, or stamped, and issued by the sovereign authority as a medium of exchange in financial transactions between citizens and with government; also, any number of such pieces; coin.
- 5. Any written or stamped promise, certificate, or order, as a government note, a bank note, a certificate of deposit, etc., which is payable in standard coined money and is lawfully current in lieu of it; in a comprehensive sense, any currency usually and lawfully employed in buying and selling.
- 6. In general, wealth; property; as, he has much money in land, or in stocks; to make, or lose, money.
[/list]
I maintain that per these definitions, Bitcoin cannot possibly be described as "money". And further, I think that those who do describe Bitcoin as "money" are doing this community a disservice.
But that is just my point of view. Are there any that can convincingly argue otherwise, that Bitcoin IS money?
Re: How to grow the Bitcoin idea and avoid that governments shut it down?
This is definitely true. I contacted Mises.org about publishing my Bitcoin article. Of course, they rejected it because they said it would "appear to be a promotion". I think they're worried about the legal ramifications of it.
I guess Mises is too academic anyway. Best to spread the word to other groups that would be more willing to endorse it.
I guess Mises is too academic anyway. Best to spread the word to other groups that would be more willing to endorse it.
Nice that you tried. Once I have some time I'll do the same. Maybe multiple people writing them might convince them to at least read something about it.
I tried with Brazilian Mises Institute as well, and they also rejected so far, apparently because it's money "backed by nothing", as said above. I'm waiting a little before trying to explain them the difference between bitcoins and fiat currencies, but I'll try.
Maybe you shouldn't have given them the impression that Bitcoin is money!
Maybe this deserves another thread. I'll start one and see what happens.
Re: How to grow the Bitcoin idea and avoid that governments shut it down?
Bitcoin will have to earn its place in the economy. If it's good, it will make it. If not, the best parts will find their way into something more appropriate.
I think the irs made some kind of ruling about barter that means tax is paid on the profit from a transfer of value, which bitcoin would fall into.
Its all besides the point considering the fact the irs collects tax regardless of anything written in the constitution ie they will do whatever they want to.
Full agree that the IRS will do whatever. But there are many things they could technically tax that they won't because it isn't feasible or it would be bad PR. If my neighbors and I watch each others kids with a barter understanding for an average of 6 hours a week for 3 decades then you've got 9000 unreported hours, that's $180k easily. But they will never try to collect I can practically guarantee it. Most people don't even have enough money to pay tax on all trades they make and they don't even think about it.
Maybe Fresno can give us a break for a while and go yell at people for all the barter income tax they owe. Someone needs to make sure they never call it work after all.
fresno just gave you a three-week break. What did you do with it?
fresno has helped a lot of people to understand the difference between what they owe and what they assume they owe. Were you listening?
Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around?
The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility?
The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility?
Take responsibility for what? Calling something what it is? Regardless, a 1099 would still be required, even when a commodity is being used for said trade. The IRS expects you to report any kind of transaction wherein the trade value, as measured in US currency on the open market, would exceed their arbitrary numbers. It doesn't matter if you are actually trading in US currency, another currency, or a commodity. Not to say that it isn't easier to successfully avoid filing a 1099 if no form of currency is (publicly) traded, but that doesn't apply to Bitcoin anyway. All transactions are public, it's just difficult for anyone to ever be certain what any one person actually has traded. If two tradesmen agreed to trade a new toilet on the electricians house for a new deck light at the plumbers house, they still haven't avoided a taxable event, even though they both might honestly believe that the government has no legitimate say in the matter.
No, creighto, whatever you just said. Please restrict your 1099 and other reporting to your own personal affairs.
I'm calling for you to take responsibility for your disruption of the threads calling for an assessment of Bitcoin's legal standing. This is something that needs to be done, and is not helped by the invocation of various "everybody knows" laws at every turn.
Inappropriate legal terms have been thrown about casually in reference to Bitcoin, and these may be prejudicial to Bitcoin's survival. They need to be addressed and eliminated positively, and directly. Bitcoin can be structured so that it is not a currency, is not taxable, and is not reportable. This means no 1099s or other forms, IF we do this correctly.
The problem with the bitcoin markets is that they all use some other online payment processor, killing one major advantage of Bitcoin, the very low cost of transactions.
The MadHatter's Bitcoin 4 Cash site http://vms43o4cqysakvyb.onion/ trades directly in several private currencies, such as the FRN, etc. So load up on Bitcoins and spread them around!
Also note that numerous jurisdictions (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender) will be excluded from the benefits of Bitcoin should it be called a currency (and thus be a foreign currency as opposed to the national currency, and thus not legal tender currency for payment purposes). If Bitcoin is officially viewed as a commodity - it may be bartered with, in these (and all other) jurisditions and thus will have universal use. The fact of calling Bitcoin a currency and not a commodity, may have a hindrance on international use (some jurisdictions may forbid or restrict PAYMENT, but not BARTER, made other than by legal tender) when Bitcoin establishes itself in the mainstream market. For an interesting parallel consider the Islamic gold Shariah coin (with intrinsic metal commodity value, see http://www.islamicmint.com/news_articles/articles/statement_castineria.html paragraph 7.) in comparison to Bitcoin (with its intrinsic mathematical solution's value).
More currency, barter, legal tender info (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency) describes how a Central Bank may have sole control over a nation's CURRENCY (as opposed to foreign currency that are sometimes specifically lawfully excluded as payment substitute for the national currency). Central Banks generally does not have sole control over COMMODITIES.
Exchange control also has legal implications when dealing in foreign currency (currency other than the national currency) in some jurisdictions (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_controls).
When owning the keys to unlock a mathematical problem, it should constitute a store of value in the form of COMMODITY ownership of instant access to a mathematical sollution to a complicated problem.
More currency, barter, legal tender info (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency) describes how a Central Bank may have sole control over a nation's CURRENCY (as opposed to foreign currency that are sometimes specifically lawfully excluded as payment substitute for the national currency). Central Banks generally does not have sole control over COMMODITIES.
Exchange control also has legal implications when dealing in foreign currency (currency other than the national currency) in some jurisdictions (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_controls).
When owning the keys to unlock a mathematical problem, it should constitute a store of value in the form of COMMODITY ownership of instant access to a mathematical sollution to a complicated problem.
Yes! We are soon due for some unnecessary grief because of our shortsightedness in describing Bitcoin with a garbage-pail load of terms such as currency, coins, money, cash, dollars, etc.
I've been ineffective in my earlier posts, maybe you can do better in getting our ducks in line before we take them out in public.
Theymos already said this... ECDSA does not support encrypting messages. Only digital signatures.
I agree. Do ONE thing, and do it well.
But that doesn't stop anyone from writing a trading suite, and using the Bitcoin protocol inside it.
Windows 7 + monthly CureIt check = sufficient stability for average user.
P.S. Unfortunately, not everyone can afford to switch to other OS.
P.S. Unfortunately, not everyone can afford to switch to other OS.
Free isn't affordable???
Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around?
The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility?
The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility?
I doubt that users would be raided, unless there were evidence of seriously-illegal activity. Those who run exchanges etc. might be at risk, OTOH, either through involvement (however unintended) with crime, or merely for violating KYC etc, laws. Some might receive hard-to-refuse invitations to snitch. Google e-gold, for example.
Remember Waco? Did you ever learn the original charges? Unlicensed gun sales! Hell, everybody in Texas trades unlicensed guns! Do you know how they justified torching a church and shooting the people as they escaped the fire? They indicted the survivors with every law in the book, and kept the jurors in a room until they came up with convictions on some diddley-squat charge, so the Times could headline they were all guilty.
You obviously have not observed how the DOJ goes after the low-hanging fruit, burying some small-time fapper under a flurry of impressive claims, hammering hard until one of them sticks. The news services love this game, it gets them big attention. It's a very effective way to intimidate the populace.
Why invite this sort of thing in the first place? Bitcoin CAN BE STRUCTURED TO AVOID THESE SORT OF CHARGES. Why needlessly expose ourselves to charges of illegality and money laundering? Let's get our shit into one sock and do things the right way.
I'm buried in work right now and can't do much. I've outlined several times on this site what needs to be done. Let's do it.
Big-worded committee bloat is slipping in. Not knocking anyone's efforts!
Improvements should consist of removing and simplifying. I'm supposed to be working, but couldn't control myself:
Dear Electronic Frontier Foundation,
The Bitcoin community appreciates your efforts to protect freedom and to keep the Internet free of unnecessary regulatory intervention.
Bitcoin is a new open-source P2P cryptocurrency system, published under the MIT license.
There are several hundred enterprises and individuals in the Bitcoin community. Many have expressed their desire to donate to your foundation, with 700 Bitcoins pledged to date. We are certain that you will receive many more in individual donations if you will set up your own EFF Bitcoin node.
Warmest regards,
The Bitcoin community
They will look at the site, and get back to us if they have any questions about how to receive Bitcoins. I doubt they'll have any trouble.
Improvements should consist of removing and simplifying. I'm supposed to be working, but couldn't control myself:
Quote
Dear Electronic Frontier Foundation,
The Bitcoin community appreciates your efforts to protect freedom and to keep the Internet free of unnecessary regulatory intervention.
Bitcoin is a new open-source P2P cryptocurrency system, published under the MIT license.
There are several hundred enterprises and individuals in the Bitcoin community. Many have expressed their desire to donate to your foundation, with 700 Bitcoins pledged to date. We are certain that you will receive many more in individual donations if you will set up your own EFF Bitcoin node.
Warmest regards,
The Bitcoin community
They will look at the site, and get back to us if they have any questions about how to receive Bitcoins. I doubt they'll have any trouble.
You're going to censor the board of references to bitcoin as money? So that later you can point to the fact that you tried to cover up the fact that it's a money? If it isn't a money, then just demonstrate that when you get hauled off. If you can't then showing where you tried to get everyone to hide the fact is not going to mean thing. If anything, you'll get conspiracy charges added. Good grief.
Good grief right back!
1. I never advocated censoring this board.
2. Your claim that Bitcoin is money is indefensible.
3. The rest of your statement is incoherent.
Somebody keep an eye on this guy while I'm gone.
Quote from: Anonymous link=topic=444.msg10598#msg10598
Thanks for you excellent site.Paypal are douchebags.
[/quote
Thanks for you excellent site.Paypal are douchebags.
[/quote
Paypal isn't the problem, it's all the douchbags on the Internet that do this crap just to turn a buck; or even just fail to do their due diligence as an informed consumer, because they know that Paypal will work it out for them. It's the slippery slope of 'nannyism' applied to 'let the buyer beware'. It's this very reason that Paypal has to charge as much as they do *even though* no credit has been extended, nor debt incurred as a result of the transaction.
PayPal IS a problem. You can't use eBay any more without going thru PayPal. They've shut down several of my trades and my main account because they don't like the valid credit card that I use. And everything now must be done by credit card, so they can report your transactions.
I sure hope Meg Whitman doesn't become the new Governator of California. That state has enough problems without being run by the same management as PayPal.
PayPal sucks.