Has S9 been released on market yet?

That was all he was asking about. That was his suspicion and you basically confirmed it. He never asked about luck (as it doesn't factor in AT ALL in his example, you should re-read what he has posted) or any of your other useless contributions. So why are you still being this rude and calling him a delusional idiot when he brought up a point you ended up confirming? A very good point I might add. That example he pasted from the Bitmain forum was very valuable in that it showed how big the gap between a regular data center maintenance fee and that of Hashnest is. A small part of the maintenance fee being a built in profit margin would be fine but the huge gap from the example shows that this might be an issue. (And keep in mind that the US data center probably has a profit margin built into their own maintenance cost as well, yet this huge gap exists..)

I don't believe Hashnest will do anything about their maintenance fee, though, even if we all complained. As long as they're making money and their customers are making a little bit of money, nothing's gonna change. Even after they've become nonprofitable, I highly doubt they're going to adjust their maintenance rate as that would cut into their sales of S9 machines, which will come to Hashnest as soon as the S7s become obsolete.

No need to be this rude, he was making a good point. And luck shouldn't factor in at all, as you claimed, provided he has all of his machines pointed at Antpool.

Hashnest is in China and the Data Center in the comparison in Washington, USA. Since the biggest part of the maintenance fee is electricity, it begs the question why the maintenance fee in China is higher than in Washington, when electricity prices in China are FAR cheaper. And what about other factors to consider when calculating a maintenance fee? Cost of labor? Cheaper in China. Real estate cost / rent for the space? Cheaper in China. Additional parts you may require, like cables, fans, everything to keep your operation going? Cheaper in China.

So why is the Hashnest maintenance fee higher than the fee of a USA data center? That's the question to consider. And I think the answer might be a built in profit margin in the Hashnest maintenance fee.

The cost of shipping in this scenario is irrelevant as I was just making a comparison between ordering a new S7 from Hashnest directly (which would include shipping on top of those 435$ as well) and ordering through the Hashnest market (which will, as you've pointed out, come with shipping costs as well).

So since both options will have the same shipping costs, I assume, I just disregarded them in the comparison - I should have pointed that out in my previous post, I'm sorry. The handling fees, however, are exclusive to the redemption machines so it had to be factored in.



The price went as low as 5000 sat / GHS yesterday and as low as 6000 sat / GHS today, I think a lot of people are going to realize the potential of buying S7 shares cheap in order to redeem for machines and we will see an increase in price back up to the 8000 - 9000 sat / GHS range - that is, of course, unless Hashnest lowers their own price of new S7s. (When buying a new machine from Hashnest right now, you're practically paying 13500 sat / GHS)


EDIT: We were able to recover to 7600 sat / GHS but now hit a really bad block finding luck wall. Incoming big red blocks have the price plummeting again.

Don't get me wrong, though, there are still reasons to invest in the Hashnest market - very good reasons. Let's say you live in Iceland or Venezuela and you can practically disregard the cost of electricity altogether. Then mining with S7s at your own location is still profitable.

Now if you were to buy an S7 from Hashnest directly right now, it would be 0.662 BTC or roughly 435$. However, if you just buy the shares on the market, and the current price per share goes as low as 6000 sat / GHS, then you'll end up paying 0.292 BTC or roughly 195$ for one machine.

If you factor in the handling fees of 50$, then you'll be paying 245$ per machine (and you get some free running time until they become unprofitable and sent to you) in comparison to the 435$ you would have to pay ordering directly from Hashnest. That's a 44% discount at least (since we didn't factor in running time until they're being sent to you)



So if you are lucky enough to be in one of those locations were electricity just isn't an issue, or you have surplus electricity from other sources that needs to be used, like solar panels, then the Hashnest market can be a great place to look for cheap hashing machines right now.

Personally, I am not as lucky since the electricity costs in my country are enormous. However, the Antminer S7 is selling for 400-500$ on local websites in my country, regularly, so I'll probably just sell on the units I'll get through the redemption process, make a profit on those and invest everything in S9 hashes.



So as you can see, there are still multiple ways to profit from the heavy devaluation of the S7 hashes - however, it is not through cloud mining anymore, as they will soon become obsolete in that regard.

I see what you mean now. The hash that hasn't been used to exchange for physical machines will probably just be gone, as the machines are retired and Hashnest has no legal obligation to offer a refund (which they won't) or an option to trade up multiple S7 hashes for a single S9 hash (very unlikely). So I would always assume that the hash that doesn't add up to a full physical machine is gone, since this isn't just the worst case, but also the most probable scenario. It would be nice if they'd just let us trade up old S7 hashes for a smaller amount of S9 hashes, but as I've said, that's very, very unlikely. They would miss out on a lot of profit by doing that..

If you go strictly by their ToS, the hash that hasn't been exchanged for physical machines will just sit in your account ... but won't do anything. You will still have the hash, but it won't mine for you, it will be a useless number in your profile. Whether Hashnest will allow you to exchange that number for S9 hash is pure speculation, but they really have no reason to (legally).

This isn't a matter of belief or interpretation - it is written clear as day in their ToS and I've pasted all the relevant information in my previous post. I don't want to sound rude but if you need any further confirmation, how about you just go to their website and read their ToS yourself? There is no better source of information on this. After all, Hashnest makes the rules, not some idiots spouting nonsense on a bitcoin forum. Doesn't matter if 9/10 people here tell you you can use your S7 Hash after it's become unprofitable to fund S9s - it's still not going to happen You either have enough hash to redeem for physical machines or your hash is gone forever, buh-bye, investment gone.

In my opinion, if you haven't started mining yet, wait until the S9s are introduced to Hashnest. All it takes is a dip below 620$ / BTC and a day's worth of bad block finding luck and we'll hit 90%+ maintenance, and the S7s will become obsolete. It could happen tomorrow, it could happen in a few weeks. But it'll definitely happen soon, so beware. It's relatively safe to invest again when the S9s are introduced to Hashnest. Provided circumstances don't change dramatically for the worse, they should be profitable for quite some time.

bapparabi is incorrect, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

You can find the information you are looking for in their ToS but basically it's like this: Once the S7 Hashes aren't profitable anymore, meaning that maintenance makes up 90% of profit (and we're at 75% already), they enter a 10 day redemption waiting period.

"If due to falling bitcoin exchange rate or increase in mining difficulty, the electricity fee is greater than 90% of mining revenues, mining contracts on Hashnest will enter a “redemption waiting period”."

During those 10 days, Hashnest evaluates wether to retire the machines or not based on how payout develops (Read more in the ToS). If the S7 becomes profitable again, the Hashes exit the redemption period and mining continues as usual.

HOWEVER: During those 10 days of waiting, you CANNOT trade your Hash any longer, as it becomes locked from the market. ("During this time HASHNEST will halt trading on the GH/s exchange, hasrate transfers and cancel any unfulfilled orders.") Meaning that you CANNOT sell your shares AFTER they have entered the redemption waiting period. After those 10 days, Hashnest may retire the machines altogether:

"During this waiting period, if electricity fees are greater than revenues for a sustained period of ten continuous days, Hashnest reserves the right to retire the machines. When machines are retired, a user’s contract will then enter into the “hardware redemption period”."

During this period, users have the chance to claim their machines provided they have enough GHS:

"During the hardware redemption period, users are given a period of 7 days during which requests for hardware redemption must be made."

and

"Customers holding enough GH/s to constitute an entire machine of the associated type (e.g., 4860 GH/s of Antminer S7) are eligible to convert that amount of GH/s into the used unit of the associated type. If a user does not have enough GH/s of the associated kind to exchange for actual hardware, then this user is not eligible for hardware redemption."

This means that your shares are gone and useless if you have fewer than 4860 GHS. If you do have enough Hash for one (or more) machines, then you have the option to have them shipped to your address, HOWEVER there is a 50$ transaction fee involved PLUS shipping from China per machine, so getting those S7 back to you will require time and more money. ("Handling fees are set at US$50, and domestic Chinese shipping (including to the export) and international shipping fees will be collected according to the actual charge.")

So it's questionable whether getting those S7s to you is worth it at all, at least when you intend to use them for mining. It may be worth it to sell them on ebay or other second hand platforms though, as those machines are usually overpriced on those sites.



All in all, you want to be careful the next few weeks. As I've said, we're already at 75% maintenance/payout and Bitmain said the S9 will come to Hashnest soon. I reckon they are waiting for the S7s to become obsolete first and if the price doesn't stay level or go up, this might be very soon. A lot of cloudminers will end up with useless Hash and lose a lot of their investment due to S7s becoming obsolete soon.

In anticipation of that crash and as a result of the halving, a heavy devaluation of GHS shares has already occured. We had a dip to 8k sat / GHS a few days ago with a slow recovery back to 11k+ (Price pre halving: 13k-14k). Today we're seeing another dip to 9k sat / GHS with ongoing downwards momentum, maybe as a result of the retreating bitcoin price in the last 10-12 hours a lot of cloudminers may be fearful of that inevitable crash, especially when considering that the block finding luck today has been unfortunate as well.

Take care!

Some people in the Bitmain forum claim to have trouble withdrawing funds, too. It seems a lot of people are having issues with this right now, waiting 36 hours and more without their transfer going through. Some have even waited for DAYS without their transfers going through and support is just saying "it needs more time". WTF??

Curiously, this only seems to occur when withdrawing substantial amounts of bitcoins (0.5+)

Why is Hashnest out of funds or withholding them?? Have they turned full scam mode?

I am very sad about this as well. I was looking for a legit cloud mining service for a very long time, and people directed me towards Bitmain/Hashnest - and it looked like the real deal. But the more I read up on peoples' issues with them and what Bitmain was currently doing, the more evident it became that Bitmain might not be the holy grail of cloud mining services after all.

Saddest part is, there aren't really any alternatives left. Out of all the existing cloud mining services, Bitmain seemed to be the one that could actually be legit.

Their "efforts" of decentralization are bullshit. If they really wanted to point hashpower away from Antpool, why were the first few batches set up to go to Antpool directly? Why did Kano from Kano CKPool say that when set up with any other pool than Antpool, S9 machines would send jibberish random code that would cause trouble in the system? At first, it seemed like you had no choice but to mine with Antpool until Kano fixed the issue.

If you really think they care about decentralization then you're kidding yourself.

Here's what's really happening: They already have hundreds of S9 machines set up in China - but not for their cloudmining service Hashnest, no. They have them set up for themselves, mining in the BW pool. BW pool is part of Bitmain just as Antpool is part of Bitmain, they use the different pools to disguise their true hashpower - and to disguise they have already started using S9s themselves. Haven't you noticed the ridiculous increase in BW hashpower over the past months? And FYI, it has been suggested by multiple experts that F2 and BTCC pools are also connected to Bitmain in some way, possibly to further the disguise of how much of the market they really control.

That's just the most profitable thing for them to do. Right now, you can make a decent amount of coins with S9s so why sell them on? They're just waiting for the S7 market to crash so everyone invested loses their money. Once that happens and S9s aren't as profitable anymore, they will just transfer the already used machines to their cloud mining operation and offer them for full price to the customers - and they're none the wiser. It's a win-win for Bitmain: They get to use the machines in the juicy first few months and then sell them on for full price once they've became less profitable. And there's proof for them already selling on used S9 machines to customers. How would a brand new S9 appear to be used if it was just released? How? Obviously because it was used for mining already - just google for this issue or look on the forum, there's hard evidence for this happening right now.

It's no coincidence that more and more S9 batches are being released now that the halving is near - and more will come in the next few weeks, because Bitmain knows the time to sell has almost come. They might continue using some after the halving if it's still profitable then, but why take the risk? They've already got months of mining profits in the bag and can now cash out by selling the machines for a full retail price, making another decent profit.

Bitmain doesn't deliver brand new hardware anymore, they use it themselves first. All of the "batches" being released right now are just sub-par or faulty machines that had already been running in China for months. When you buy at Bitmain, you buy second hand. Getting a machine that actually works, doesn't overheat and delivers hashpower in the realm of what was promised is a fucking gamble. Your chances of getting a decent, working machine are probably higher after the halving because they're keeping the good ones for themselves for now.

Bitmain are just being greedy fucks at this point. They have the machines set up to mine for themselves but withhold them from customers who had previously funded all of their R&D by buying inferior S3, S5 or S7 machines. They're basically going the KnC/Bitfury way, happily taking your money as long as it suits their needs but also withholding any new technologies funded by your money as long as it's profitable for them.

Shame on Bitmain, what they're doing is basically a big scam.

Should you be invested in their cloud mining operation then I personally suggest cashing out all of your GHS shares BEFORE the halving occurs - the S7 hash market will collapse soon after and I don't want to risk losing all of my investment.

Why has the Antpool luck % been so low for the last month? Other pools remain well above 100% while we're at 89-92% with higher fees   Is this all random or is there a reason for this?

Quick question: When I buy hashpower on the Hasnest market from another client of theirs, will it be transferred to my account and used to mine for me? How long does that usually take?

From when is that information? I asked their support yesterday the very same question and for SHA-256 they answered "50/50 BTCchina and AntPool".

I have had the exact same thought a couple of days ago lol


Thanks so much for sharing!

So did you end up selling your S5 hashrate in the end or did you get the hardware sent to your home or what happened once those S5 miners werent profitable anymore (Or are they still?)

I think mining in legit cloud mining services can still be profitable, especially considering that those will not simply terminate your contract but offer to send you the hardware you've practically bought instead. So you can at least sell that hardware on ebay later on and have a shot at making a profit in total. An example of a 99.9% legit cloud mining service would be Hashnest, I'm currently looking into investing there. I'm not certain as to whether it is profitable or not, though. I am still looking for more first hand experience by users that have been invested there for a longer period of time.

It's a shame about all those lost contracts though. I imagine 90%+ of their customers were not aware this clause existed in their contracts prior to their hashrate suddenly disappearing. I feel bad for those people, they have been tricked by shady referral programs and terms like "lifelong contract".

Thanks for your input but that's way too vague. I was looking for first hand experience by users that have actually been invested in Hashnest for a long period of time. Numbers, charts, excel spreadsheets, screenshots: In short, your journey on Hashnest - that's what I was looking for. I'd love it if some of you would share their wisdom .. at least a little of it : )

Thanks!

Hashnest newcomer here, wanted to address some more experienced, long-term cloud miners with a couple of question : )


First of all: What's your overall experience with Hashnest? It seems to be one of the truly legit (meaning they mine themselves) cloud mining services around. Are you satisfied with them as a company? Ever had any issues with withdrawals etc?

Secondly, what are your two cents on ROI? Have you ever made it? If so, how long did it take and how much net profit were you able to make after hitting that sweet ROI?

And finally: Is this a good time to start? Or should I wait for the new S9 units and the halvening to happen before even thinking about investing?


I would really appreciate some first hand experience! A customer's judgement speaks volumes about a company and I would be really thankful for some valuable opinions on Hashnest : )

Thanks!!

Screenshots or it didn't happen

Was any of your income from referrals? When did you start investing, how much did you invest and how much have you made?

They are actually allowed to delete your contract if it has been unprofitable from a maintenance perspective for more than 20 days straight.

From their contracts, 4.b Terms:


This is a huge deal! A lot of people don't realize that with exponentially rising mining difficulty and a constant maintenance fee, your contract will sooner or later expire provided the BTC price doesn't go to the moon (lifetime contracts... yeah, right). And if it did, most of these cloud mining companies would probably go bust.

Think about it, all it takes is a 20 day exchange rate dive and your whole investment is gone. Doesn't matter if the price goes up again shortly after. *Poof*. Gone. Buh-bye. As it is right now, a dive below 300 EUR/BTC for 20 days would suffice for a lot of contracts to disappear. And that cut-off is rising every day due to the rising difficulty. It could be 600 EUR/BTC in a couple of months. Are you certain the bitcoin price will stay above 600 EUR consistently for the next few years? I'm not.



And Genesis Mining isn't the only company practicing this method. Here's a gem from Hashflare's ToS:



Which begs the question: Why are those contracts terminated (so quickly)? The hardware is still there (provided it ever existed) - so why not give it at least a couple of months before throwing it out? Since that is the only explanation as to why those contracts are being terminated: The hardware is getting replaced because it's not profitable anymore. In such a case, why not offer customers a switch to newer hardware for a small fee?

These contract terminations are extremely suspicious to say the least. To me, it appears to be a built in "fail-safe" in favor of the companies selling the contracts - a fail-safe that makes the ponzi scheme obsolete because the customers never really have a chance of getting their money back. I don't want to say it's a scam because they're literally holding up their end of the contract - a contract you have to agree to before buying hashrate there. Is it a good business practice that invokes trust in them actually mining (all of the) coins they claim to mine? Certainly not.

Personally, I have come to the conclusion that services like GM or HF are nothing else but a gamble. You literally have to bet on the exchange rate going up enough (and due to the exponentially rising mining difficulty, those levels would have to be ridiculously high, almost impossible to achieve) until you can hit ROI - and it still could take years for you to get there. Why would you do that, though? Why would you bet on something if the best outcome is getting your money back after a year or so? You could literally invest in bitcoin instead, keep them for a year and you'll have so much more than just your initial investment back.



I am desperately looking for a legit cloud mining service, but neither HF nor GM are those - and those clauses in their contracts should make that abundantly clear to anyone still wondering about their profitability.

Please think twice before investing in those companies. No, GM and HF are (most likely) no ponzi-schemes - but that's because they don't have to be. They will do exactly what the contract you sign with them says - but it's a shitty contract and chances you will ever see ROI are minuscule. You literally have better odds in any given casino - and you know something isn't a good investment opportunity when "betting on black" isn't only a safer but also way more lucrative move.