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It's that simple physicality which gold bugs will always value, so I don't see your argument persuading them that bitcoin is *now* better than gold, and even in some future where bitcoin dominates - people would probably want some of their portfolio in gold.
I think we essentially agree.
I'm not arguing that people now trading want bitcoin as much as they want gold (that is manifestly untrue). More, I'm trying to counter the opinion that goldbugs seem to hold that there is something inherently valuable about gold, and something inherently bad about bitcoin.
That just isn't true; their argument is essentially anthropic: gold is valuable because it is valuable. There is no reason we can't say $COMMODITY is valuable because it's valuable. Therefore bitcoin is valuable because its valuable.
I don't seek to disprove the worth of gold; I seek to show that if gold is valuable, then bitcoins are valuable.
Now... a quick word about "lower bound of zero". If you want to argue that gold has a non-zero lower bound, fine, but then bitcoin must have a non-zero lower bound. It has properties that make it worth something. Even if that something is $0.000000001. In that case we're simply talking a matter of scale not of truth.
If gold is valuable, then $COMMODITY is valuable.
set $COMMODITY = my poo.
Hmm, your formula doesn't seem to be working.
But I agree with your argument that bitcoin has value. Gold is valuable because it has valuable properties (unlike my poo). Bitcoin is valuable (or not) according whatever properties it holds (or does not). Gold and bitcoin share certain properties, but they are not entirely identical. We should start talking to goldbugs by first telling them about the properties bitcoin shares with gold. Then, when they agree on those, educate them about bitcoins unique properties.
bitgold is so convenient and successful that nobody ever actually goes and claims their gold. Why would they? What if, at this moment, 99% of the gold vanished? Literally. It gets zapped by aliens. But... nobody knows that it's happened. Nobody need care. Trade is happening as it always has. Nobody actually wanted the gold (and for those that did, the 1% that's left will be fine).
Ignoring some minor differences about how the coins/gold was introduced to the chain, we've gotten to a point where bitgold is equivalent to bitcoins. Goldbugs of the world, and mises.org fuddy-duddies: where is your god now?
Ignoring some minor differences about how the coins/gold was introduced to the chain, we've gotten to a point where bitgold is equivalent to bitcoins. Goldbugs of the world, and mises.org fuddy-duddies: where is your god now?
This example also explains how to take over bitcoin with another digital currency. Start by making the currency backed in bitcoins, and give it some unique properties (e.g. instant transaction confirmations, better payment support, w/e). One-day you realise people don't bother converting their new currency back into bitcoins...
Some standard due-diligence questions:
- What is the actual name of your corporation, and in what jurisdiction is it incorporated?
- What is your D-U-N-S number, for your Dun and Bradstreet rating?
- "Global Standard Bank" is not listed with Canadian federal corporation search or Quebec corporation search. Explain.
- Are your employees bonded? If so, who is your bonding company?
- Do you carry errors and omissions coverage? If so, who is your carrier?
- Has any executive employee of your company ever been convicted of a criminal offense?
Good start - anyone else have additional questions?
Relating to these 2 points listed above:
- What is the actual name of your corporation, and in what jurisdiction is it incorporated?
- "Global Standard Bank" is not listed with Canadian federal corporation search or Quebec corporation search. Explain.
Why is the word 'bank' in your company name? (And have you really been granted a registered trademark on it? Or is that more of your 'mock-up').
Here is why I'm asking: From http://corporations.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cd-dgc.nsf/eng/cs01191.html:
Quote
"Your corporate name cannot suggest, for example, that you are a branch of the government or that you offer services or products governed by financial legislation, such as trusts, loans, insurance and banking. "
Emphasis mine.Here it is again slightly more detailed:
http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cd-dgc.nsf/eng/cs01797.html#connoting
Quote
A corporate name containing any of the following words is likely to be rejected unless the words are used in such a way that it is clear that the proposed corporation will not be a financial intermediary nor a bank: (Regulation 22)
annuity, assurance, assurances
bank, banc, bancorp, banco, bankco, banker, banking
casualty, fiduciare, fiduciary, fiducie
guaranty, indemnity, life, loan, loanco
mortgage, insurance (unless used with the words "agency, agent, broker, service")
pret, savings, surety
trust, trustco, warranty
annuity, assurance, assurances
bank, banc, bancorp, banco, bankco, banker, banking
casualty, fiduciare, fiduciary, fiducie
guaranty, indemnity, life, loan, loanco
mortgage, insurance (unless used with the words "agency, agent, broker, service")
pret, savings, surety
trust, trustco, warranty
If you are an actual bank, you will be listed by The Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions Canada (OSFI) http://www.osfi.gc.ca/WWWapps/lists/eng.asp?s=1&g=1&i= (but your not).
A solution to this kind of problem is for wallet services to offer 'signed receipts' for all transactions, and only carry out transactions for which the customer first signed a request.
Then in the case of a dispute a customer can simply present as evidence their receipt (which has the account balance on it), with their digital signature and the wallet providers signature. Whoever has the most recent receipt 'wins' the argument (because everyones signature is on it).
https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Triple-Signed-Receipts
http://iang.org/papers/triple_entry.html
http://truledger.com/
Then in the case of a dispute a customer can simply present as evidence their receipt (which has the account balance on it), with their digital signature and the wallet providers signature. Whoever has the most recent receipt 'wins' the argument (because everyones signature is on it).
https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Triple-Signed-Receipts
http://iang.org/papers/triple_entry.html
http://truledger.com/
Is a receipt enough? Won't you also need to show that you never withdrew the coins in order to prove you were actually stolen from?
You get a signed recepit for everything. deposits, withdraws, transfers. There is no action involving your bitcoins that doesn't include you signing something. If they can't produce a signed (by you and them) receipt showing you withdrew the funds, but you can show a receipt showing they have x balance, then you 'win' the argument.
If anyone is confused about how or why this actually works, I encourage you to read through the links above. It's a good read.
Re: [Scam Alert] Global Standard Bank - the first Bitcoin bank?
Great sleuthing guys, we'll mention this in tomorrows show - I'll also reach out to them for an interview on the show to let them answer some of these questions, anybody find an email/phone that looks like it goes somewhere beyond a strawman?
I emailed Gary (http://who.godaddy.com/whois.aspx?domain=globalstandardbank.com&prog_id=GoDaddy)
No reply, my guess is that he is not actually the owner, and that the scammers have just hijacked his email to throw people off the trail. The reason I think that is his design pages all look abandoned (several years out of date), and they very very different in style and construction from this scam site.
Namecoin is certainly not 'dying'. In fact the development team has been very active, and activity has been picking up on the exchange. It seems to me that some people are getting nervous that all their money is in Bitcoins.
If you left all your money in Bitcoins, and walked away from a year and came back, there's a chance it could be worth 0. Not because governments made it illegal, or because more people were goxed... but because Namecoin has more features and simply made it obsolete in comparison, so it fell into disuse.
Namecoin can do everything that Bitcoin can do, and also the DNS stuff.
If you left all your money in Bitcoins, and walked away from a year and came back, there's a chance it could be worth 0. Not because governments made it illegal, or because more people were goxed... but because Namecoin has more features and simply made it obsolete in comparison, so it fell into disuse.
Namecoin can do everything that Bitcoin can do, and also the DNS stuff.
I'm not clear on how namecoin pricing works, but if everyone got into namecoin, and it's value skyrocketed, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of namecoin?
A solution to this kind of problem is for wallet services to offer 'signed receipts' for all transactions, and only carry out transactions for which the customer first signed a request.
Then in the case of a dispute a customer can simply present as evidence their receipt (which has the account balance on it), with their digital signature and the wallet providers signature. Whoever has the most recent receipt 'wins' the argument (because everyones signature is on it).
https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Triple-Signed-Receipts
http://iang.org/papers/triple_entry.html
http://truledger.com/
Then in the case of a dispute a customer can simply present as evidence their receipt (which has the account balance on it), with their digital signature and the wallet providers signature. Whoever has the most recent receipt 'wins' the argument (because everyones signature is on it).
https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Triple-Signed-Receipts
http://iang.org/papers/triple_entry.html
http://truledger.com/
I'd go for Perl. 90% of what you want to do has already been done and is available from CPAN.
Quotes collected by Bruce Eckel:
Python is executable pseudocode. Perl is executable line noise.
Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job.
Perl is worse than Python because people wanted it worse. Larry Wall (Creator of Perl), 14 Oct 1998
I would actively encourage my competition to use Perl. Sean True, 30 Mar 1999
So lets get this right.
They are using 'very high tech storage':
They are opening offices in 5 cities, and they even have ATM's!
Toronto
New York
Vancouver
Montreal
Calgary
Yet the pages all link to 404
And apparantly their services are already live (from the 'news' section).
They are asking for very detailed personal identification to be faxed to them,
Yet their registered trademark logo isnt actually registered and their domain is only registered for 1 year.
SOUNDS LEGIT
Please change this to scam alert.
They are using 'very high tech storage':
Quote
Stored in our specially designed vault that combines the latest technology in bank grade encryption, redundant back-up systems and the physical security of an actual bank vault to protect against environmental threats such theft and fire. If thats not enough, all deposits are fully guaranteed*against loss!
Yet their website is built in iWeb and is full of design flaws, bad formatting and broken links, and their webpage icon is actually their hosting companies (BLUEHOST.COM)!They are opening offices in 5 cities, and they even have ATM's!
Toronto
New York
Vancouver
Montreal
Calgary
Yet the pages all link to 404
And apparantly their services are already live (from the 'news' section).
They are asking for very detailed personal identification to be faxed to them,
Yet their registered trademark logo isnt actually registered and their domain is only registered for 1 year.
SOUNDS LEGIT
Please change this to scam alert.
Quote
Signing up to trade or save Bitcoin with Global Standard is easy. Simply fill-out our one-time application form, Select the account that is right for you, and fund your account in U.S. Dollars, Canadian Dollars, Euros or Bitcoins... and thats it!
While the initial customer application will take a 10 to 15 minutes to complete, future transactions are as quick and easy as filling out a deposit, withdrawal or exchange slip.
Before you begin make sure you have the following details on hand:
Your U.S. Social Security Number (SSN) or Canadian Social Insurance Number (SIN)
or National Insurance Number - for residents of the U.K.
Previous address details if you have lived at your current address for less than 3 years.
Two pieces of Government issued Identification (at least one with photo) see acceptable I.D.
While the initial customer application will take a 10 to 15 minutes to complete, future transactions are as quick and easy as filling out a deposit, withdrawal or exchange slip.
Before you begin make sure you have the following details on hand:
Your U.S. Social Security Number (SSN) or Canadian Social Insurance Number (SIN)
or National Insurance Number - for residents of the U.K.
Previous address details if you have lived at your current address for less than 3 years.
Two pieces of Government issued Identification (at least one with photo) see acceptable I.D.
Wow... they need your social to sign up at their 'bank'?
Yeah I got alarm bells walking all over their site.
Quote
Losing any investment to theft is always serious business
It's serious business! They even said so!Stock images everywhere, including their bluehost logo (that appears on browser tabs, etc). The most shitty layout skills ive ever seen, no buttons even have properly aligned text, site all built in iWeb.
Tell me they're not trolling. For suckers.
*edit*
Another classic warning sign:
domain registered for 1 year.
I'm going to contact gary@garyhorsmandesign.com who is listed as the owner of the domain to see what he has to say.
Gmail was in "beta" for a very long time while millions of people were using it.
It's somewhat trendy to be in beta.
Yes, bitcoin needs a metaphor makeover.
However, from personal experience I think your just as well off getting a really good UX guy/gal to sit down and design the interface as you are going through a usability lab, and it's a LOT cheaper. This is, of course, just my 2 cents, but I've never been much of a fan of a lot of formal usability testing (and I've worked in 2 usability labs for different departments with full kits - one way mirrors, everything recorded and transcribed, mouse movements, eye tracking, etc etc). Just get someone, or someones, who really know what they're doing.
Maybe you can start thinking about various workflows and corresponding metaphors and note them in this thread?
BTW if you do some searching I recall seeing other threads trying to tackle the interface. They even had mockups of the design.
However, from personal experience I think your just as well off getting a really good UX guy/gal to sit down and design the interface as you are going through a usability lab, and it's a LOT cheaper. This is, of course, just my 2 cents, but I've never been much of a fan of a lot of formal usability testing (and I've worked in 2 usability labs for different departments with full kits - one way mirrors, everything recorded and transcribed, mouse movements, eye tracking, etc etc). Just get someone, or someones, who really know what they're doing.
Maybe you can start thinking about various workflows and corresponding metaphors and note them in this thread?
BTW if you do some searching I recall seeing other threads trying to tackle the interface. They even had mockups of the design.
*edit* This is for those who are considering getting into programming. I'm not so much looking at just 'what is best to help with bitcoin'.
There are 3 main programming paradigm's that Im aware of: procedural, object orientated, and functional. I'm going to suggest you start with Object Orientated. For that, I'm going to nominate Java or Python.
If you take up Java, you can help with the bitcoinj project. You can also work on Android clients.
I don't think that for learning programming, C or C++ are your best choices. I think you want a language that introduces to the most Object Orientated concepts with the least amount of technical baggage. From that perspective, C and C++ would be ruled out. I really can't see the point in learning about garbage collection as an initial introduction to programming.
If you ever want to get serious about functional (a lot of languages like to 'borrow' elements from this paradigm) have a look at Haskell.
For python or Java free learning resources:
http://diveintopython.org/
www.mindview.net/Books/TIJ/ (Bruce Eckels Thinking In Java)
www.mindview.net/Books/TIPython (Bruce Eckels Thinking In Python)
There are 3 main programming paradigm's that Im aware of: procedural, object orientated, and functional. I'm going to suggest you start with Object Orientated. For that, I'm going to nominate Java or Python.
If you take up Java, you can help with the bitcoinj project. You can also work on Android clients.
I don't think that for learning programming, C or C++ are your best choices. I think you want a language that introduces to the most Object Orientated concepts with the least amount of technical baggage. From that perspective, C and C++ would be ruled out. I really can't see the point in learning about garbage collection as an initial introduction to programming.
If you ever want to get serious about functional (a lot of languages like to 'borrow' elements from this paradigm) have a look at Haskell.
For python or Java free learning resources:
http://diveintopython.org/
www.mindview.net/Books/TIJ/ (Bruce Eckels Thinking In Java)
www.mindview.net/Books/TIPython (Bruce Eckels Thinking In Python)
Funny how OT is referencing bitcoin all over the place, yet there is this nugget in the FAQ:
"YOU have to trust the issuer of that cash, and the contract he used to issue it, and decide whether you trust that it is backed with real value. There is no escaping this basic fact (of electronic trading of any good) someone has to store the actual gold, or whatever it is, that supplies the actual backing value to the currency."
I like the OT concept, but it hasn't really found a niche yet - and latching on to bitcoin doesn't seem to be it.
"YOU have to trust the issuer of that cash, and the contract he used to issue it, and decide whether you trust that it is backed with real value. There is no escaping this basic fact (of electronic trading of any good) someone has to store the actual gold, or whatever it is, that supplies the actual backing value to the currency."
I like the OT concept, but it hasn't really found a niche yet - and latching on to bitcoin doesn't seem to be it.
WARNING: I sound like a OT fanboy. You may think I'm an OT developer. Neither is true :-)
I disagree with your comment on latching onto bitcoins. I tihnk its exactly what it needs to survive. I think OT just isn't mature enought yet to use in a production sense. I also think it ambitiousness also leads people to not fully understand what it can do, and what it's trying to be (including me), so they just ignore it, or mentally flag it as 'investigate later'. But I think its exactly what bitocin needs. Here are some of the markets it can help bitocin capture:
1. It allows for true anonymous transactions (porn, drugs, laundering, w/e). While not mainstream, these markets could be essential for bitcoin economy bootstrapping (IMO). Bitcoin already has means to achieve this, but OT does it better (well, chaumian blinded tokens do it better, to be specific)
2. Online wallet services are going to be essential for bitcoin to make it mainstream, and OT allows for better account based wallets (client or online) than we have seen yet from any provider. This is a big one. The level of fail in current online wallets is a big problem IMO.
3. it allows for instant clearing transactions (again, think pay-per-view movies, porn, vending machines, anything where waiting around for comfirmations is a bad idea)
4. it allows for low-fee or no-fee microtransactions (this depends on scalability of OT servers i suppose)
5. It can solve the many-online-wallets-which-one-should-merchants-accept-and-how problem with basket currencies. This also mitigates the trust issue for users better than anything else right now (except vanilla bitcoins)
6. shit loads of other stuff i cant think of right now
It doesnt replace bitcoin, it extends it. They need eachother.
However, apart from code maturity I think OT may suffer from feature creep. For example it plans on (among other things) taking over namecoin and DNS. It wants to implement full fledged smart-contract features. It serve a lot of different markets will all the possible financial instruments. And so on.
I think it's best bet would be to fully implement a small subset, get the code rock solid, targeting certain markets, and built from there.
But I really think the bitcoin community should have a closer look at it. We're missing out.
Re: The Bitcoin economy needs about $100,000 a day of new money
It's been noted for a while that the price of Bitcoins sags each weekend. That's an indication that new money is required daily. You can still trade Bitcoins on a weekend, and people do. You can still mine Bitcoins, and people do. But you can't wire transfer in money from a bank.
if it were always true that the price goes down on the weekend due to inability to wire fiat money to an exchange, the smart traders would spend the weekdays wiring their money in preparation to buy only on the weekends when prices are low. This should level out the weekend dips in the long term
in other words if it was always obscenely profitable to do something simple, everyone would be doing it and nothing else, and then it would no longer be profitable
Further, if this were always true, the miners would stop cashing out on the weekends and save that for weekdays.
beware of a false dichotomy in regards to 'success'.
It's far more likely that bitcoin settles into one or more specialist/niche roles as a currency, and serves them well. So no, you may never be paid wages in BTC. And you cant eat BTC. But you will be able to do a whole lot of other useful stuff with them; stuff that is done better with bitcoins than dollars.
I'll leave it as an exercise for the readers to work out that that stuff is
It's far more likely that bitcoin settles into one or more specialist/niche roles as a currency, and serves them well. So no, you may never be paid wages in BTC. And you cant eat BTC. But you will be able to do a whole lot of other useful stuff with them; stuff that is done better with bitcoins than dollars.
I'll leave it as an exercise for the readers to work out that that stuff is
Tell me if I have this right.
Your going to remove income tax, and add it to an excise tax.
1. your raw materials are going to cost a LOT more than imported materials.
2. Do you lift this tax burden for exported goods? Or are you killing all your countries export industries. If you are lifting the tax on exports, why can other countries get the goods cheaper then your own? After all, you produced them.
3. Its totally unfair. Take an unemployed person for example. Currently his income tax is zero. But your going to add the income tax of the countries wealthiest people into the basic cost of goods, so that his bread and milk costs will go way up? Thats going to benefit the high income earners greatly.
Your going to remove income tax, and add it to an excise tax.
1. your raw materials are going to cost a LOT more than imported materials.
2. Do you lift this tax burden for exported goods? Or are you killing all your countries export industries. If you are lifting the tax on exports, why can other countries get the goods cheaper then your own? After all, you produced them.
3. Its totally unfair. Take an unemployed person for example. Currently his income tax is zero. But your going to add the income tax of the countries wealthiest people into the basic cost of goods, so that his bread and milk costs will go way up? Thats going to benefit the high income earners greatly.
I'm sure your convinced of bitcoins flaws, and it might just be that your not very good at arguing them, but I've read that newbitcoin paper a few times (including when you first linked it) and I'm just not buying it. In fact a lot of those arguments are just stupid, (sorry, I really hate to phrase it that way, since I don't like to troll) but honestly - 'bitcoin is not really decentralised'
For the record I'm not a hardcore bitcoin evangelist; I also think bitcoin has flaws. I just don't think they outweigh it's benefits (yet).
*edit* just wondering, have you given up on cryptocurrencies in general, or just bitcoin in particular. no reason, just curious.
For the record I'm not a hardcore bitcoin evangelist; I also think bitcoin has flaws. I just don't think they outweigh it's benefits (yet).
*edit* just wondering, have you given up on cryptocurrencies in general, or just bitcoin in particular. no reason, just curious.
Bitcoin is a digital currency that cannot be made worth less due to the issuing of new bitcoins by a central bank.
I really like thisDifferent products and services enable transfer of bitcoins between bitcoin eWallets, which may have different owners
Way too confusing