Quote from: Mota on November 07, 2015, 10:43:56 AM

Quote from: Andre# on November 07, 2015, 10:13:56 AM

Quote from: billyjoeallen on November 07, 2015, 07:46:41 AM

Let me put this another way:

I bought bitcoin because it never even occurred to me that it wouldn't scale. Many new users don't know now that it doesn't scale, but when we run up against the hard limit and your beloved transaction fee market kicks off, everyone will know and nobody likes paying high fees for something they are used to getting nearly free.

The investors/speculators are the only reason this thing works at all. You are taking us for granted. We do not exist simply to facilitate drug deals. WE buy the coins. WE supply the liquidity. If you don't give us what we want, we invest elsewhere. Without us, nobody pays the miners and everything grinds to a halt.

I tend to agree, as more and more users become aware that Bitcoin doesn't scale, combined with frustrating user experiences of txs getting stuck, and txs becoming more and more expensive, for sure a part of the users will turn away from Bitcoin. It will make the price drop, since most of it comes from the future expectations of Bitcoin.

Of course, if LN is up and running before it plays out like this, and it doesn't degrade the user experience, Bitcoin won't fall off the cliff. However, the Core client devs take quite a risk by taking Bitcoin hostage like this. I know I'll vote with my feet. Once I see evidence of the downward spiral, I'll sell my stash. I bet I won't be the only one, and the option of another cryptocurrency taking over becomes a very real possibility.

Because one thing is sure, cryptocurrencies are here to stay.

This discussion is getting annoying. Of course people who pay no transaction fees are getting stuck, but that is not a cause for greater blocksizes.

You are twisting it. It's about people who pay too little tx fee. Where it isn't clear when it's too little. It would even be better if there would be a minimum fee, so you know what is needed.

Quote from: Mota

You think you have the power because you buy bitcoins? You do NOT pay the miners, the system does.

I have the power because I own bitcoins. The power to sell, that is. The inflation as a result of issuance of bitcoins to miners (currently 9% annually), is the price I pay.

Quote from: Mota

It's actually your attitude that is pretty arrogant, not the other way around. Do you know what would happen when the miners decide to cut back their hashing power? I do. VERY few blocks found for a LONG time! You have to realize that mining is not cheap, and miners do require those fees more and more since block rewards diminish. https://blockchain.info/de/charts/network-deficit
The times when people were willing to get negative balances for their mining are long gone, the market regulates itself.

No need to resort to name calling. When miners hash less, difficulty will drop, and the network will get less secure. As you say, the market regulates itself. So let it do so, the network will be as secure as needed.

Quote from: Mota

That being said, I am all for bigger blocks, but not because of the - excuse my french - bullshit arguments some people tend to bring forward.

You mean like your twisted opening argument? Or some of the others that followed?

Quote from: Mota

The thing is, even with bigger blocks people will have to pay fees. People who want free transactions will always complain the moment there is a chance they will have to pay something or risk getting no service.

At least we can agree on people will have to pay fees. Free transactions are not guaranteed.