Quote from: d_eddie on August 11, 2017, 12:47:39 AM

Quote from: empowering on August 11, 2017, 12:38:59 AM

Quote from: d_eddie on August 10, 2017, 09:46:10 PM

Quote from: jojo69 on August 10, 2017, 08:17:12 PM

Quote from: K~Ehleyr on August 10, 2017, 08:13:39 PM

on a decision that they were not qualified to make in the first place,

There you go with the elitist thinking again. I am trying to be patient, but this is really offensive.

Who, pray tell, IS qualified to make such decisions in a democracy?

People who have a clue about the actual consequences, I'd say.

I can't speak for K~Ehleyr, but I have been following the Brexit matter closely since the debate started. The urban people, the educated, the young, overwhelmingly voted "Remain". So did some geographical/economical minorities (notably Scotland). The bulk of "Leave" voters were working class folk, afraid because they're losing their jobs to Polish plumbers. They have been lied to, their fears exploited cynically. Now these people see that the foreign plumber isn't going away anyway, but the City workers who used to be their customers at lunchtime or when their expensive shirts needed washing are going away if the government isn't able to negotiate merciful terms. And things look like the they won't be able to.

This is not about centralization/decentralization IMO. It's about an open market or a closed market. It's much harder to produce (or keep) wealth in the latter. Some of the uneducated are beginning to realize what happened above their heads, and they aren't going to be happy about that.

Nonsense.

Sorry but utter utter shyte

No need to be sorry for disagreeing.
Some more elaborated arguing wouldn't hurt, though.

sure.. first thing is sorry to have been so brash..

Your comment "I have been following the Brexit matter closely since the debate started. The urban people, the educated, the young, overwhelmingly voted "Remain"."

Well-there in lays part of the issue. You have been following this Brexit since it first started... as have many of the people of the UK- and that is problem number one for most people - the attention to the issue is 20 years at least too late!!! (at least) and for many people inc the "young" "the "urban" its just something they have cottened onto in the past few years...do you see the issue there? Some have been following the formation of the trade bloc since before Heseltine and Thatcher.... their opinions if anything bare experience of the issue, and first hand experience of the consequences unwinding its way into British and European society.

The kitch media , the Guardian may hop up and down about it now- and claim its only ignorant, racist, old, country folk who voted "leave" I know this to be less than true... its bad journalism - and its the same bad journalism that has paid lip service to the benefits of the EU- and also assured us all that the "Remain" vote would win. out of touch arrogant journalism imo. Certainly out of touch- as you may gather by the fact they did,and continue to take the complete wrong temperature of the room.

For me I find the demographic is quite different- I know many many people, young, urban, educated that voted remain- but does it matter that a large number, never used their education in their career or to benefit society in any way, and most are office workers, estate agents, insurance brokers, hair dressers, account executives and the like... most live quite sedentary lives, living from inherited money - and living rent seeking lifestyle - all very lovely- all mainly quite uninformed and financially illiterate- and by and large could not give a damn about the EU 2-3 years ago- and short of how it effects them- still do not in any meaningful way. Most certainly had no opinion of the EU forming in the first place decades ago... and really live in bubbles. The media led them by the nose- just as much as the opposite end of the group.

On the other hand of the people I know that publically admitted to voting "Leave" are mostly farmers, engineers, doctors, nurses, armed forces,designers ,tree surgeons, builders, people in the financial industry SME owners.... people with a more critical bent- and sure some are older- and more experienced, and actually have seen the rise and fall of the EU and remember life before it - not all- taking age out of it - in my experience the people I have met or known have rarely been racist, are quite well informed and financially literate, generally are self employed - well travelled, hard working intelligent people with analytical minds.

Now- I know this is anecdotal - and me and the group of people I know and have met/are a small sample group- on the other hand - I have been talking to people about Europe and the EU for about 20 years now - and not just in the UK - my family are from and live all over Europe- and I spend a lot of time in many parts of Europe talking to many Europeans, and have seen and heard the consequences in many countries for BETTER and for WORSE- and that has been my experience to be frank- the young urban "educated" group of people you refer to are in my experience the EXACT group of people that only gave a damn about Europe when the Brexit media machine started... then they all had expert opinions.

However I also do know a lot of young, urban educated (and self educated) people who DID vote to LEAVE- because - in their opinion that is what they think is right...

By the way- all my family are from "Europe" from two countries that are as different to each other in many ways as you can get... nothing against Europe or Europeans - the exact opposite.

I just do not believe in the trade bloc- I think it is ill conceived,poorly structured,over bureaucratic,low on accomplishments, and shockingly financially inept and irresponsible and as a financial experiment, that I have watched unwind over the past 20 years - I think it is a failure. Financially speaking the union is already dead in all but name- there is NO way the union can survive without MASSIVE debt restructuring and right offs and essentially making a joke of the "governance" that has poured from it the past decade.

Not 1 single person that I know that voted "Remain" could tell me the current monthly QE figure.... and that says it ALL ...both the fact none knew the figure... but even more importantly.. the actual figure itself... and please remember the the EU is a financial trade bloc- not a club.

The young urban educated guys are very very fond of this financial bloc ..... for some reason... never known anything like it to be honest.

I love the Pyrenees in the summer, I love my French friends, my Spanish father, I love the lakes of Northern Italy, the Beer in Brugge,the Smoke and the people in Holland, the beauty of the Romanian forests, the design and lifestyle of the Scandinavian countries... the laid back green of Ireland, where the rest of my family is from... I mean I could go on and on and on... Europe and the diverse peoples and societies and customs and the food and myriad of landscapes I LOVE IT!

BUT what I don't give a hoot about- a failed, and long time failing European trade bloc, that is bankrupt, and making decisions that frankly do not help the people of EUROPE...

Also please ask a German or a Norwegian, or any of the fiscally restrained , tax paying countries if they are happy being in a trade block with their southern neighbours...

One final note on EU and on ignorance and our current times.

One thing that is missing from the "young urban and educated" demographic AND the media writ large, in a very clear and demonstrable way.... something far far more worrying in my opinion... and that is there was a VOTE ! an actual vote- and people voted, in a democracy and to the media and the "young urban educated" that voted to "Remain" that does not seem to mean fuck all.. apparently its uniformed, and uneducated and ignorant and people duped that voted LEAVE... do you not see what is wrong with this picture?

The "young educated and urban" should KNOW the value of free and fair elections and referendums - and whats more they should know enough to respect the outcome.. even if the media and the deep-state DON'T respect the outcomes of these processes.

Because one day - it will be your wining vote that the deep state and media will seek to over turn and ignore and brand YOU the ignorant .

Then where will we be?

ps - K~Ehleyr - What was that QE fiigure again?

pps- Back on topic for me - I don't know why I waded into this TBH - I regret it already- frankly not the time nor the energy nor the inclination to go on about Europe any further.