Quote from: MPOE-PR on June 20, 2013, 03:11:24 AM

Probably. I might venture as far as to say that the principal value of WoW is exactly this grinding, that some people apparently like, and that the failure to implement same is the actual cause of the D3 collapse, in spite of all the numerous other defects countless web-commentators found.

Maybe some people liked the grinding in WoW, but it was definitely manifested in a different way. There is no absolute dependency on a party. What occurs in WoW is the romantic solo-quest. When partying occurs it's just an extension of this mentality, as well skill really isn't truly necessary. If you watch someone in a WoW dungeon, they rapidly hit keys as if they are trying to refresh reddit when it's down. FFXI is far different due to the timing requirements. Press a button too quick and you fuck-up, press it too late and you fuck up. The entire action of fighting was designed to be fulfilling, holding true to the Final Fantasy franchise, and in turn the process of grinding became fulfilling. It's a sort of emergent gameplay built on a fundamentally sound concept.

In WoW this was highly diluted, for the sake of difficulty. FFXI turned a lot of would-be players off because they had trouble acclimating to the skill level. However many veteran players (which I definitely would not include myself in this category), would say this barrier to entry made the social aspect of the game more fulfilling because the game punishes incompetence.

WoW was always an endeavor to the end level, as the end content was the treat everyone wanted. Maybe in the beginning the journey was fulfilling, but after some time, this became increasingly more "rote" due to the allure of the endgame. This became so pervasive, Blizzard created several "events" and "bonuses" which gave the player double XP. Where in the original incarnation of WoW it would take a least a few months of heavy play time to get to max level. It is said a player can reach max level in the most current incarnation in a matter of weeks.

usagi adequately stated "the journey not the destination". WoW focuses on the destination, FFXI the journey. WoW became more accessible, and subsequently extremely profitable.

I ultimately think you're game will have similar principles to FFXI, focusing on skill rather than rote mundane tasks. Ultimately that's more fulfilling to the player.

You're focused on the effects of farming, the inflationary nature of resources being infinite. This is a definitely and interesting point. As you state in the quote below, when there is only enough money to buy one "Super Awesome Sword of Chaos" in the entire game, it creates an entirely different mindset. If this sword only can have on instance of itself within the entire game as a limitation, this definitely creates a different mindset from the traditional "lets get money by killing shit". I guess you and MP were baffled and annoyed that monsters dropped gold coins in the traditional RPG. I don't blame you.

Quote from: MPOE-PR on June 20, 2013, 03:11:24 AM

Well in an RCE game in a sense this is somewhat obliquely present, in the sense that the player is (usually) attentive to efficiency, which means he primarily does whatever he's doing because it's productive rather than because "it's what the storyline hath ordained".

As stated above with FFXI this isn't constrained to merely an RCE game. This is particularly clear in Dark Souls which is a game in-which the fundamental level of play is dependent on how skilled the player is with his or her character. You see the same signs, the player is more attentive to his items, his movements, his actions, and his growth. Completing tasks/quests within the game bring a certain "fuck yea" level of satisfaction, unlike a simple quest in WoW.

Perhaps it's purely the difficulty, but that seems to be simplifying it too much.

Adding something such as permadeath for the hardcore player usually instantly raises the player's awareness. But that doesn't create any more depth to the existing experience.

Depth is ultimately achieved through the content. Everything within the game attributes to the player experience. This attention to the level of detail is why the GTA franchise has become so successful.

Quote from: usagi on June 20, 2013, 01:43:00 AM

It's the irony of it all. And then you try to make it personal. I'm a child-politician engrossed in welfarism, so you don't have to take my advice. Or I don't have a job. Or whatever. You reek of failure and incompetence. If I was the only person telling you these things it would be different, but I'm not.

I hope you're not saying I'm saying that, because I'm not.

Just because an individual doesn't have the capacity to perform a task themselves, doesn't mean this person can't procure the necessary resources. This is moot. Perhaps S.MG goes up in flames, but if this is the case, it will be a Hindenburg-like explosion that will be witnessed for miles, and not a puff of smoke. I believe in fundamentals in game design. I play devil's advocate here because I hate when designers use a lot of smoke and mirrors to mask bad design.

Quote from: usagi on June 20, 2013, 01:43:00 AM

No, you don't get it. You have to listen to what people tell you and stop being such a kid. The problem is you want to make money from your game in a "fuck the player as long as we get paid" way. You are putting the money first and it will ruin your game. I am not even close to the first person who has told you this, which is why I quoted thestringpuller. S.MG should probably hire him as a consultant. After what I read from him, I would do so myself if I was involved in game design. He is spot on about everything, although notably he missed with Richard Garriot, who was the producer of Lineage and Lineage II, City of Heroes, etc. as well as a designer and/or producer of a number of other recent games. The next WoW could very well come from him, I wouldn't have characterized him as someone with a small at-home following at all.

They do listen, and in particular Mr. Popescu is willing to listen to reason. Perhaps the reason S.MG is hyperfocused on the business plan is because whatever the designer is doing will not be seen by us unless approved by Mr. Popescu. The designer (if they have one yet), is locked in a box, far way from the public. MPOE-PR even stated that as one of the benefits of being a developer in contract with S.MG.

I'm flattered at people thinking I should be a game design consultant, but I'm just pointing out the fundamentals. Anyone significantly more experienced than I, and is a designer by trade will point out similar things.