Quote from: BADecker on November 14, 2019, 07:21:15 PM

Quote from: af_newbie on November 14, 2019, 07:15:38 PM

Quote from: BADecker on November 14, 2019, 05:05:09 PM

Quote from: af_newbie on November 14, 2019, 02:56:50 AM

Quote from: BADecker on November 14, 2019, 02:32:24 AM

In our deterministic world, religious freedom is the norm. How? God takes our free choices (because we are too weak to do it) and activates the C&E that causes what we chose in this deterministic universe. God isn't limited by time. If necessary to make the universe match our choices, He goes back to the beginning and tweaks C&E to get it to happen today according to what we choose.

Quantum physics is a tiny beginning into God observation. The more of it we see, the more we see God.

You need to think more before you write.

Cool

LOL. You either have free will or you don't. You feel the heat, don't you? Let me bring it home for you.

You cannot have C&E determinism/no randomness and free will at the same time.

You picked "no randomness", so you are a Christian heretic as you denied the existence of free will. If you would pick an indeterministic model of the world, you would also lose because you would be against the dogma that says that God controls everything and that he pre-arranged everything for us.

Heads you lose, tails you lose.

The Christian dogma that says the world is predetermined by God and allows for a free will, contradicts itself. But what else is new.
The whole thing is a poorly written soap opera.

Anyway, intrinsic randomness has been observed in nature. Next.

A quadriplegic has free will to wish that he would walk across the room. But he can't do it because he is weakened by his Q problem. So, someone else moves him across the room as he wished.

Just because a person has free will to wish something, doesn't mean he can do it. And it is really like that for all people. God has placed the world in place so that they have many things that they can do. But really, it is God that carries out their wishes for them... all of them, simultaneously, all over the world. However, there are some wishes that God doesn't carry out for them. You can't literally jump to the moon, can you?

So, we live in a deterministic world. Yet we have free will to wish. And it is God Who carries out many of our wishes for us, both according to what we wish, and according to His will at the same time.

So, you can see how free will exists, and yet how activity in life works deterministically. But this was explained in my previous post that you quoted. So you prove that you are a liar by suggesting that I am a heretic.

Btw, no pure random has been observed in nature. The only random is the fact that people are unable to follow the determinism in nature. Such random is not pure random. It is only weakness and ignorance.

Cool

I don't think you understand what free will is in the context of your religious myth.

Free will is not just a wish. If God were the gatekeeper of your wishes, why does he not stop serial killers and rapists from committing their crimes? The only conclusion is that either we have a free will to do whatever we want (God cannot stop us) or that he is one evil motherfucker for allowing the murder and rape to take place. Christians absolved God from the apparent evil in this world by adding free will to their dogma to blame people and their actions (free will) for all the evil in this world.

When you have free will you are an independent acting agent; regardless of the prior causes and effects, i.e. your free will is the randomness in the otherwise deterministic universe. You break the C&E system established by your God by sinning. Free will allows people to sin. That is in your Christian dogma, I am not making this shit up.

If you say the universe is deterministic, then all is predicated on the prior causes and effects, and your thoughts (wishes), as well as actions, are the result of some other cause or effect. You could not possibly have a free will in the deterministic world, because everything in this world, including your wishes, and future actions, would be predetermined. Look up the definition of determinism. Everything is predetermined, including your moral actions.

That is why the concept of free will and determinism in the religious dogma is an oxymoron.

If your 'free will' is predetermined, it is not 'yours' and it is not 'free'. It is not free will, just a prior cause.
I cannot explain this any clearer.

You simply don't understand that your free will actions are dictated by the present bio-chemical situation of your synapses. And the present bio-chemical situation of your synapses is dictated by the food you ate, the water you drank, the radiant energy hitting your body, and all kinds of other firing synapses that might not have anything to do with your free will activity in question. So, it isn't really free will, since all these other activities are directing how it works.

What this all means is that your free will is situated somewhere else.

Cool

So you are a Christian heretic by denying that humans have free will.

Now we are getting warmer. There is no free will as defined by religious myths. That was my fucking point from the beginning. I was trying to explain the Christian dogma to you because you do not understand what it says and what it means.

Now, that you understand that there is no free will we can both agree that God is responsible (cause) for all the evil in this world. Again. I am just stating what your religious dogma says. I do not believe in evil or God. Just bad/good shit happens to good/bad people.

As for randomness, it is observable, read the PDF I posted, it seems like it is an emergent property of the underlying system. Check the causal fermion system theory.

BTW, I do not believe in ANY details from any religious myths. Free will, demons, angels, sin, God, hell or heaven. It is all made up shit to scare people and give the religious conmen 10% of their income. Gypsies lifting curses, card readers, fortune tellers, religious preachers are all the same, conmen.