Quote from: Etranger on Today at 06:56:23 AM

Quote from: DaRude on Today at 03:52:07 AM

Quote from: Etranger on March 20, 2022, 06:29:29 AM

Quote from: mindrust on March 20, 2022, 05:29:09 AM

If you agree with this then you shouldn't say a word when some other country seizes the western properties. Shit like this cuts both ways. I hate this hypocrisy. The west is free do kill and steal but when some other country does it, it is the worst thing ever happened.

Why is rhetoric of defending russia for accusing the West of similar actions so popular? Do you understand that your argument is based on substitution of concepts and distraction from the main subject of discussion? Do you also justify one murderer by being convicted by the same murderer? Will this first be less killer after that? And why entangle crimes of the West here now? You can create a separate thread for them. Your accusations against the West in no way diminish or smooth out what the russians are doing to Ukraine now.

Well, because context matters, history matters, and double standards and hypocrisy are a thing. Have you ever considered why Lady Justice is blindfolded? Selective justice is not justice but just another term for preferential treatment. How could you take a kangaroo court that doesn't investigate laser guided bombing killing 408 civilians hiding in the bomb shelter seriously? It's like me cheating and getting advantage in the beginning of the game and then saying, from this point on lets play by the rules. Even kids wouldn't fall for that. Precedents have consequences.

The context is important when it comes to comparing two situations. The context is important when we retrospectively describe these events as part of history. But how can you say that context matters when you use it to say, "well, you know, they've died before, and generally, for example, in Syria, much more destructive weapons were used. It's not just these guys who are bad."

Just an amazing take on the situation! It only says that you do not have your own position on what is happening right now. The context can be used stupidly for everything, just to do nothing. Napoleon, you know, burned the half of the Europe, so that you can ignore the demolished Mariupol, the scale is still not the same, and in general, let's stop considering Napoleon a hero, because this is a blatantly topical issue, given the context.

Sure, without context think everyone can agree that every war is bad, innocent civilians and children die, war is hell. But claiming low or high innocent civilian casualties, is quantitative, and cannot be done without context. Also, statements like bombing of civilian targets, is it just a neutral statement in urban warfare, akin to saying that bullets fly during wars, or there are implications of war crimes and extreme violence which cannot be discussed without context. I have utmost respect for pacifists, but you have to be consistent. What does it tell you about people who in one instance of a larger human suffering can go throughout their day without blinking or even knowing, but in another instance, they are all activated, they suddenly take up a strong civilian position, put up flags, start donating etc... Isn't such preferential treatment just diminishes all other human sufferings? Of course this wouldn't apply to people directly effected by this war.

Quote from: paxmao on Today at 11:11:16 AM

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Quote from: DaRude on Today at 03:52:07 AM

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Now we come to the fun part, what happens next. The way i see it is either west manages to collapse Russia with soft power for the second time (but now has to deal with China next), or diplomats totally miscalculated and fucked up big time, giving cookies to Ukraine just went too far too fast, it cornered Russia, so west looses all leverage over Russia, Europe looses a trade partner and once again gets a totalitarian regime next door with it's gloves off. On top of that it'll have no option but to align itself with another totalitarian regime, China. That has potential for a change in a world order, that's why now everyone is watching China

There is no fun part in all this. Europe will not "align" with China much more that already was. This war has shown how totalitarian regimes need to always be considered a risk.

What is clear is that Europe may actually create a real army of its own. The problem with armies, particularly if large, is that they tend to justify their cost creating wars.

Perhaps a poor use of words, i meant fun in terms of intellectually challenging to predict. Don't get fooled, just because soft power comes without tanks doesn't mean that it cannot be more devastating in terms of human suffering than tanks. What do you think will happen to the following trends if instead of collapsing, Russia is pushed to radicalize, becomes a totalitarian state and aligns with China by providing it say a 20% discount on all natural resources Russia exports? Sanctions will contract world largest grain exporter (Russia) economy, what are the chances it would lead to famine and wars in Africa? Who will current actions benefit, and at what point do you think we should stop thinking in terms of right/wrong what should be done and start thinking if anything can be done? How competitive in global economy will EU be if it's labour and now raw resource costs will be that much higher than China, what would unemployment rates be at, will US help EU out or it'll be dealing with its own issues etc etc etc ...? There are reasons why global politics is complicated and not all black/white.

https://www.ft.com/content/56f1eb6b-6abb-44a9-abe2-78494f39f435