Quote from: TwitchySeal on May 19, 2022, 04:13:23 PM

Quote from: DaRude on May 19, 2022, 04:36:32 AM

Quote from: TwitchySeal on May 18, 2022, 11:19:06 PM

Quote from: DaRude on May 18, 2022, 09:00:53 PM

Quote from: suchmoon on May 18, 2022, 07:07:41 PM

Quote from: DaRude on May 18, 2022, 06:37:22 PM

Looks like this is not the first time around, CIA operation Red Sox, US sponsors Ukrainians who weren't just Nazis but did Nazis' "dirty work". And who's the head of said directly linked Nazi group OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists)? You guessed it, the "hero" Stepan Bandera.

Bandera was a Ukrainian nationalist, who fought against Soviets and against Nazis. Ended up imprisoned in the same concentration camp as Stalin's son IIRC. Allegedly for helping Jews, despite having anti-semitic views. Controversial figure. But that doesn't fit your narrative, does it? Black or white, putinist or nazi, no other options.

Oh he fought against Nazis, now did he? Care to site how many Nazis he killed, jews he helped (i'd love to read about that) to offset tens of thousand innocent people women and children he murdered, so you feel justified calling him "controversial" instead of straight out condemning this asshole? I'm guessing with such logic, you consider Hitler to be a controversial figure as well? I mean, he drew paintings and surely you can dig up some article of Hitler saving a kitten or a puppy or killing one Nazi at some point in his life before WW2? Are totenkopf, wolfsangle, blacksun, swastikas, and sieg heils are also just "controversial" articles for you, cause you know they were used before Nazi's?

Let's see what's Israelis stance on this point.

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His group also was involved in the ethnic cleansing that killed tens of thousands of Poles in 1942-44. The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists portrayed Russians, Poles, Hungarians and Jews — most of the minorities in western Ukraine — as aliens and encouraged locals to “destroy” Poles and Jews.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kiev-renames-major-street-to-honor-russian-nazi-collaborator/

But that's back from 2015, i'm sure it has cleaned up since then right? From 2021 article:

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Israel’s ambassador condemned the torchlight march Friday in Kyiv in memory of Stepan Bandera, issuing the strongest rebuke yet by an Israeli official of the event, which has grown in scope amid rising nationalism in Ukraine.

“We strongly condemn any glorification of collaborators with the Nazi regime. It is time for Ukraine to come to terms with its past,” Ambassador Joel Lion wrote on Twitter Saturday.
During World War II, Bandera led the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose men killed thousands of Jews and Poles, including women and children, while fighting alongside Nazi Germany against the Red Army and communists.

Expressions of admiration for Bandera and other collaborators have increased in scope and status following the 2014 revolution in Ukraine, which toppled the regime of Viktor Yanukovych amid claims that he is a Russian stooge, and triggered an armed conflict with Russia.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-march-in-ukraine-in-annual-tribute-to-nazi-collaborator/

Hmm okay how about other experts on this, the Germans

Quote from: German Foreign Ministry spokesman Christopher Burger

BURGER (AA): Die Bundesregierung verurteilt und stellt sich gegen jede Form von Antisemitismus und gegen jede Glorifizierung der Verbrechen der Nazis. Ich kann Ihnen ergänzend sagen, dass wir natürlich auch die von der Organisation Ukrainischer Nationalisten teilweise unter Leitung Banderas begangenen Verbrechen insbesondere an Zivilisten verurteilen. Ein erheblicher Anteil ‑ das muss man im Kopf behalten ‑ dieser Verbrechen wurde in Kollaboration mit deutschen Besatzungstruppen begangen.

Google Translate
BURGER (AA): The federal government condemns and opposes any form of anti-Semitism and any glorification of Nazi crimes. I can also tell you that we of course also condemn the crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians. A significant proportion - one must keep this in mind - of these crimes was committed in collaboration with German occupying forces.

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/newsroom/regierungspressekonferenz/2505386

I guess Germany and Israel don't know what you know, you should explain to them how this guy was "controversial". The guy literally killed 10.000 of innocent people, and you reluctance to call spade a spade is concerning. This really needs to be a litmus test, if you in any way support a guy that killed 10.000 of thousands (uncontested) of innocent people you're a Nazi sympathizer or collaborator. He doesn't seem to be so controversial in Ukraine if government (presumably after lots of discussions) decided to name a street in a capital after this murderer.

Edit: If in your eyes Bandera is "controversial" care to provide an example of Nazi collaborators who you don't find to be controversial, or are you saying that all Nazi collaborators are somewhat controversial because they all can claim to be nationalists?

Serious question, what are your thoughts on Stalin. All this manufactured Nazi drama seems to be a distraction from the fact that when it comes to being responsible for human death and suffering, Hitler was a noob compared to Stalin. And here we are watching Putin, the former KGB agent that never got over the collapse of the SU, make play after play directly from Stalins hand book.

Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?

Now what Hitler did was a genocide, he systematically exterminated six million Jews in concentration camps; and in gas chambers and gas vans in German extermination camps.

These numbers are only from the Holocaust (don't include deaths due to war):

Victims	Murdered
Jews	5.7 million
Soviet civilians	Approximately 6 million
Soviet POWs	2.8–3.3 million
Poles	1.8–3 million
Serbs	300,000–600,000
Disabled people	270,000
Romani	130,000–500,000
Freemasons	80,000–200,000
Slovenes	20,000–25,000
Homosexuals	5,000–15,000
Spanish Republicans	3,500
Jehovah's Witnesses	1,250–5,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

World War II losses of the Soviet Union from all related causes were about 27,000,000 both civilian and military

Now I'm giving you a benefit of a doubt and I really hope your audacity to claim that "Hitler was a noob compared to Stalin" just comes from your illiteracy. If so not all is lost, but you should really educate yourself before posting nonsense, or parroting keywords you hear in the media.

So, not trying to make light of what Hitler did at all, but Stalin was in power much longer than Hitler, and between the Famines, Gulags, Korean War (turns out that was on him somehow), mass execution's, there are historians say he's responsible for over 40 million victims, including 20 million deaths. (Victims including those that survived the Gulags, were driven from their homes, towns destroyed, etc)

He was willing to have anyone killed for pretty much any reason.

Quote from: DaRude on May 19, 2022, 04:36:32 AM

World War II losses of the Soviet Union from all related causes were about 27,000,000 both civilian and military

^^^Stalin gets credit for a lot of that

He deliberately starved 3-4 million Ukranians to death, sent a million that didn't die of starvation to work camps (where most died of starvation), and then hunted down hundreds of thousands that left Ukraine for other parts of the SU, as well as any of their relatives and executed them.

He ordered any troop that surrendered or captured to be considered a trader and sentenced to death if they ever returned. And he followed through. When the British and Americans liberated German camps, the Russian prisoners begged them to let them stay. No joke. Every Soviet prisoner that was returned to the SU killed. The Brits and Americans had to trick them to get on the trains, and were later investigated for war crimes for doing so.

There was the "Not One Step Backward" rule, the military was ordered to kill any soldier that retreated for any reason. There were special Russian units that were positioned just behind the front line who's only job was to kill other Russian soldiers that looked like they might be thinking about retreating. Almost 200,000 were killed this way.

As of 2019, in Russia Stalin hit a record approval rating of 51% in 2019.

The way Putin controls the media and cracks down on dissent is straight out of Stalins play book. Even the way Putin invaded Ukraine, by claiming to only be there to "liberate" Russian speakers, is crazy similar to how Stalin justified invading Poland, claiming he was there to "liberate Ukrainians", but later it was revealed he had made a secret deal with Hitler to divy up the land and not get in each others way.

I'm afraid to ask this, but if you attribute "a lot" of WW2 losses to Stalin, may I ask then how many Soviet deaths during WW2 you attribute to Hitler? Because that's exactly what it sounds like you're doing, whitewashing what Hitler did to fit your narrative. Also, care to estimate on Russian losses and the outcome of WW2 without the "Not One Step Backward" rule for the soldiers?

We can sit here and throw made up numbers all day long, but there's only one other nationalization of farmers property on grand scale that i can think of that could be comparable. And it's Great Leap Forward and let's just say Stalin was a saint comparing to this implementation.

How can you even compare dictators indiscriminately sacrificing the lives of their own people in the name of industrialization/collective farming/etc... to intentional, targeted, systematic, genocide of whole ethnicities/races/nations in the name of ethnic cleansing, is beyond me. But on top of that claiming that Stalin was a noob to Hitler is just evil (while at the same time trying to cover your ass by claiming that you're not trying to make light of what Hitler did, just makes it that much more despicable)

For your own good, you should really question the motives of the sources which lead you to forming such ideas!