Quote from: af_newbie on May 22, 2022, 08:44:51 PM

Quote from: DaRude on May 22, 2022, 08:13:38 PM

Quote from: af_newbie on May 22, 2022, 02:37:02 PM

Quote from: DaRude on May 22, 2022, 08:00:12 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on May 20, 2022, 05:32:33 AM

Quote from: DaRude on May 20, 2022, 03:40:16 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on May 19, 2022, 10:59:41 AM

Quote from: DaRude on May 19, 2022, 04:31:57 AM

It scares me that you reached your pinnacle of cringe right on this topic. Person who yells WHATABOUTISM when i even slightly hint at a comparison (not a main rebuttal), blatantly doesn't answer a single direct question and just start discussing other people Huh

surely the irony cannot be lost here

[...]

Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.

No, it's still you bringing in unrelated shit into this thread.

You brought up Bandera as one of the reasons Ukraine needs denazification (correct me if I'm wrong). I responded as to why that's absurd. If you can't make a coherent argument that's not really my fault.

Quote from: DaRude on May 19, 2022, 04:31:57 AM

The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths...the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm

[...]

Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street? Roll Eyes

this is beyond atrocious!

Quote from: DaRude on May 19, 2022, 04:36:32 AM

Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?

But still Bandera streets in Ukraine - bad, Ukraine needs denazifying.

Stalin streets in Russia - nah, I just don't condone it.

Sometimes I feel like your reading comprehension is on a 6th grade level. Let's try once again, I brought up Bandera because I came across CIA's operation Red Sox where in 1949 CIA also tried to back Ukrainian independence by sponsoring Bandera, and CIA operations chief flat out admits that they were sponsoring a group directly linked to Nazi atrocities, even worse they did the Nazi's 'dirty work' (Bandera). Everyone seem to agree that this guy massacred/tortured/rapped lots of people, yet Ukrainians felt that he was the most deserving from all Ukrainians to name a street in his honor in the capital of Kyiv in 2016. Now this is where i get confused, you claim that there are only few Nazis in Ukraine but no more than in any other capital ok, so if you'd say that some idiot somehow managed to find some loophole and rename a street in the city after the murderer but once people found out there were protests etc but for one reason or the other they cannot change it to someone more deserving, i'd understand. But you don't say that at all, what scares me is your allusions, changing topic to other people, and reluctance to condemn Bandera makes it sound like that's wasn't an error at all, and most people do in fact support a guy who massacred innocent people. Am i mistaken? Is Bandera a hero to you?

Bandera is a Ukrainian national hero who fought for Ukrainian independence. He was against the Soviet invasion of Ukraine, a staunch anti-
communist, nationalist but not a Nazi. He collaborated with the Germans, but later was arrested by them and imprisoned in the concentration
camp.

He was assassinated by the Russians.

You support Russians who committed and are committing genocides and war crimes. Who executed people in Katyn?
Santa Claus? Who killed innocent people across Europe during Soviet times?

Russians did. So shut the fuck up about your support for these animals.

Who killed innocent people across Europe? Easy, your hero Bandera. Here are some highlights:

Quote from: Banderites

Stepan Bandera (1909-1959), head of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists that formed in 1929 as an amalgamation of movements including the Union of Ukrainian Fascists.[2][3] The union, known as OUN-B, had been engaged in various atrocities, including murder of civilians, most of whom were ethnic Poles.
...
These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
..
The OUN-B (Banderites) formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans
...
To ensure maximum impact of the systematic ethnic cleansing campaign in the contested territory, OUN-B faction spread antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians.
...
Bandera wrote a manifesto entitled "Ukrainian National Revolution" that called for the annihilation of so-called ethnic enemies.
...
included specific instructions about the killing of Jews, Poles, and Ukrainian opponents of fascism.
...
OUN leaflets...read: "Exterminate the Poles, Jews and communists without mercy. Do not pity the enemies of the Ukrainian National Revolution!
...
The first pogrom took the lives of at least 4,000 Jews... and the "Petlura Days" massacre of more than 2,000 Polish Jews by the Ukrainian militants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banderites

Quote

Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists[1][2] (OUN), an organization responsible for ethnic cleansings also implicated in collaboration with Nazi Germany.
...
largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[28] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine.
...
his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

Guy who was never even a citizen of Ukraine, kills 10k-15k Ukrainians (ignoring thousands of other women and children) that's your hero? Just cause he also killed Soviet people?

To summarize:

1929 Bandera joined OUN
1931 becoming the chief propaganda officer of the OUN
June 1933 became head of the OUN national executive
June 1934 assassination of Poland's Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki. convicted of terrorism and sentenced to death but the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment in Poland
1 Sep 1939 Germany Invades Poland.
Sept 1934 Bandera is freed from prison, moves to German-occupied zone of Poland offers his services to Nazi Germany in exchange for ongoing financial and logistical support.
Sept 1934 recruited before Operation Barbarossa during World War II into the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr for espionage, counter-espionage and sabotage.
22 June 1941 Nazi Germany invades Soviet Union
5 July 1941 Bandera is arrested in Germany
14 July 1941 After 9 days released from custody was required to stay in Berlin
Jan 1942 Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen concentration camp's special barrack for high-profile political prisoners Zellenbau but kept in special, comparatively comfortable detention
Sep 1944 with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released and settles with his family in West Germany
1946 OUN-B was re-formed in under the sponsorship of MI6. Organization had been receiving some support from MI6 since the 1930s. One faction of Bandera's organization...became more closely associated with the CIA
Some American intelligence reported that he even was guarded by former SS men.
Bandera reached an agreement with the BND, offering them his service, despite CIA warning the West Germans against cooperating with him.
1959 Bandera was assassinated in 1959 by KGB agents in Munich.
22 January 2010 President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded Bandera the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine.

Let's reiterate where everyone stands. On one side we have:
Russia
Israel
Germany - condemning crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians
Poland - declared Volhynia a genocide, and doesn't even allow cars with OUN (red black flag) stickers to enter Poland

EU - Deeply deplores ... to award Stepan Bandera, a leader of the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) which collaborated with Nazi Germany, the title of ‘National Hero of Ukraine’; hopes, in this regard, that the new Ukrainian leadership will reconsider such decisions and will maintain its commitment to European values;

And on another side we have:
Ukrainian neo-Nazis
and YOU

Right, so we all got your stance on Bandera. A follow up question, how do you feel about Hitler, he also fought against Soviets, so is he a hero to you too?

You dipshit. I am not Ukrainian. Read my post.
Bandera is a Ukrainian hero and always will be because he fought for the independence of Ukraine.

What Russia did to all of Eastern Europe/Caucasus/Siberia over the years is not forgivable. They are animals.

The current Z-ombification of Russia should be of concern to any sane human being.

The Z Russians today are ready to commit genocides without thinking twice about it.

All this de-Nazification nonsense is for idiots like you. It is to turn away your attention from the fact that Z Russians are NaZZZis.

Ukrainians are killing Russians because the Russians invaded their country.

Russians are killing Ukrainians because they are Ukrainians.

BTW, can you list the mass killings of civilians committed by Ukrainians since 1991? Who is the Nazi now? LOL.

So from all of the facts that i provided that Bandera is a world wide condemned massacrist, your best rebuttal is that's he's still a hero just because he fought for the independence of Ukraine, as if that somehow negates all the murdering of innocent women and children as well as ethnic cleansings Huh

I accept your switch to personal attacks as indication that you ran out of any coherent arguments and a total capitulation on said topic.

I really hope that you're in minority, my next goal is to try and estimate how many Ukrainians actually approve of the massacres and see Bandera as a hero

Bandera was not near the massacres in Volhynia. You are attributing these atrocities to him instead of Mykola Lebed because you are a zombie who can only consume pro-Russian propaganda. Bandera was in the concentration camp when these atrocities were carried out.

I don't think you will find many Ukrainians today who would approve of the massacres of Poles during WWII. Of course, what happened was
deliberate, brutal ethnic cleansing. You will not find many Ukrainians today who are for the extermination of ethnic groups in Ukraine or elsewhere. That is just insane to suggest that the WWII massacres are somehow related to the invasion of Crimea and Donbas by Russia in 2014.

But on the other hand, Russian soldiers and Rosguardia have been given direct orders to annihilate the Ukrainian nation.

If you are truly against ethnic cleansing, you would be against Russians committing war crimes in Ukraine. You would be against this war.

Instead, you are supporting a genocidal maniac who turned Russians into Z-ombies who think that bombing schools, hospitals, and civilian infrastructure somehow makes Russia great again and is just.

All because Ukrainians consider Bandera their national hero? That is just insane. But I repeat myself.

That wedge that Russians were always trying to stick between Poles and Ukrainians will not work. Polish people hosted millions of Ukrainians
fleeing Russian tanks in THEIR homes.

Here is the Polish president talking about the Polish-Ukrainian relations, current and past:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpaz22R2WBw

Russians lost the social media war, lost the economic and political wars, and soon they will lose the military war.

You do know what the "B" in the OUN-B stands for right? Hitler wasn't physically in Auschwitz/Treblinka turning on the gas pipes himself either, but that didn't help his case. Your foaming at the moth prevents you from seeing that it's not just me going out making up these claims about Bandera, it's the position of US, Germany, Russia, Israel, Poland, EU!

Hope you're not in Poland, cause you calling murderer Bandera a hero there would get you criminal responsibility for propaganda. And rightfully so!

Quote

President of Poland Andrzej Duda has decided to sign the law On Institute of National Memory that envisions introduction of criminal responsibility for propaganda of the Bandera Ideology and hand it over to the Constitutional Tribunal.

https://ukranews.com/en/news/545697-president-of-poland-duda-decides-to-sign-law-banning-bandera-ideology-and-pass-it-to-constitutional

I'm glad to hear that majority doesn't support extermination of ethnic groups, i already knew that, i'm just surprised to find how so many can be fooled into calling a guy who proposed doing exactly that a "hero", to a point where they name streets after him and build statues, as if there are no other more deserving Ukrainian, scientist, artists, anyone for that matter that didn't enable all of the murdering!

Quote

Google Translate
The ambassadors of Poland and Israel criticize Kyiv and Lviv for their historical policy
Diplomats explained that on December 24, the Lviv region council adopted a resolution on the allocation of public funds in 2020 to commemorate the Nazi collaborator Andriy Melnyk, as well as "xenophobic, anti-Semitic and anti-Polish writer" Ivan Lypa and his son Yuri Lypa, creator of the "racist Ukrainian theory" race ".

The ambassadors also pointed out that on January 1, a banner with the image of Stepan Bandera was displayed on the building of the state administration in Kiev.

"Bearing in mind our innocent brothers and sisters murdered in 1939–1945 in the occupied territories of Poland, which are now part of Ukraine, we, the Ambassadors of Poland and Israel, believe that glorifying those who actively promoted ethnic cleansing is an insult that is counterproductive in the fight against anti-Semitism and in the process of reconciling our nations, "reads the statement.

https://www.gazetaprawna.pl/wiadomosci/artykuly/1446782,ukraina-melnyk-bandera-ambasador-polski-krytykuje.html

Banners at Zhovkva Castle, Ukraine, greet German liberators in July 1941 with the words: “Heil Hitler! Glory to Bandera! Long Live the Independent Ukrainian State! Long Live Our Leader Stepan Bandera!”

As far as my position, I already stated it a while back, I don't "support" any war, and in the beginning was surprised that it happened, but now reading more and more about it, i see just how unavoidable it was. It's just too easy for US to start wars while seemingly justifying it with best intentions of freedoms ("spreading democracy" is a meme by now). But of course US only cares about freedoms of countries who's dictators it doesn't support itself US Provides Military Assistance to 73 Percent of World’s Dictatorships.
We all know what would happen if Russia decided to support opposition promoting religious freedoms in Saudi Arabia. Or supporting "freedom fighters" for democracy, women rights, LGBT+, freedom of press etc... to Yemen, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain... And as a bonus any critic would be put on a spot to explaining why they oppose freedom of religion/democracy for poor oppressed Saudis...!

Initially I thought that US's support of Ukraine's 2014 coup was just a big diplomatic failure/miscalculation, but now seeing how US managed to prepare/arm Ukraine in 8yrs since then (to the point that even Russia initially seemed to have no clue what surprise they were stepping into), how Brexit happened, and how now Germany/France are all getting screwed, makes me think that this wasn't just a coincidence. Undercutting EU while making it fall in line and totally dependent on US while bringing Russia down is just too much of a coincidence.