Quote from: TwitchySeal on September 21, 2022, 03:58:27 PM

Quote from: Branko on September 21, 2022, 08:24:38 AM

Quote from: TwitchySeal on September 21, 2022, 08:15:37 AM

Quote from: DaRude on September 21, 2022, 06:42:46 AM

for Russia the stakes are existential

No. For Ukraine the stakes are existential. Not Russia.

Russia is invading Ukraine.

You're talking about communist utopia kind of world.
In real world, there are only select few countries with UN veto power, and they play by different rules.
USA didn't see Russia as partner after collapse of Soviet Union, but as defeated side in cold war.
We're now looking at consequences, as Russia doesn't seem willing to play that role

No, I'm talking about the war in Ukraine.

Putin wants Ukraine to be Russia. That's what makes it an existential threat to Ukraine. If Ukraine didn't fight, there would be no more independent Ukraine. If Russia stopped fighting, there would be no more war - but Russia would still exist.

Putin fooled you. He claimed there was an existential threat at the beginning of the war, when he thought he had the power to topple Zelenskys government, to justify his decision to invade but the reality is if he wouldn't have invaded NATO wouldn't be expanding as quickly and Ukraine wouldn't be fast tracked to join the EU. Do you really think Russias existence depends on whether or not Putin is able to annex a few regions in the South and East of Ukraine? Because that's all that's left. Use your brain.

take solace in knowing that your death will be slow Grin

So US is sending million 155mm shells, EU depleted their military stock reserves and about to loose heat during the winter, and Russia declaring mobilization. Like literally, what else needs to happen for people to stop pretending and start questioning that maybe, just maybe, this is much bigger than Ukraine?? Russia's existence depends on it's resources and few allies it has left, financially it just cannot compete with US on "soft power" field especially when US can fuck up almost any country in south America/Africa/Asia/Middle East to get more resources so it can buy up all of the political will it wants in countries directly bordering Russia. Russia knows that if it lets Ukraine slide it will set a precedent for Belarus and Kazakhstan next. If you remember before this all started Russia drew up it's security concerns and requested written reply from US, think it's now safe to assume what kind of finger was drawn on a paper that U.S. ambassador, John Sullivan handed back to Moscow. Clearly US didn't take Russia's concerns seriously, as a final attempt to show that this is an existential threat for Russia Putin did more posturing, he sent a column of tanks directly to Kyiv. At that point all of EU knew just how serious the situation was, that this is an existential threat for Russia and RU is willing to make it's last stand over this, thus no one in EU expected for US to enable UA to just start taking out that column. Now we see the logical conclusion to those events. Sullivan leaves Moscow sept 4, and everyone in EU is dumbfounded about this great American plan, tons of dead people, EU in recession, UA will be back under RU sphere of influence, and China is having a laugh while they get discounted resources from Russia and their manufacturing competitors in EU are wiped out

When you read a history book about cold war, how many pages are dedicated to the suffering of Cuban people?

Quote from: suchmoon on September 21, 2022, 11:58:56 AM

Quote from: DaRude on September 21, 2022, 06:42:46 AM

Blah blah blah Russia wasn't perfect, here i found some issues that will convince everyone that Russia wasn't moving towards democracy and freedom in 2013 fast enough. Russia - EU summits were held up to 2014 and this guy just ended his presidency in 2012. Surely the military generals that everyone calls to replace Putin would somehow be much better for everyone Huh

Medvedev's "presidency" LOL. BTW have you read his latest drunken ramblings?

No, must've missed it. I know he turned into a real hawk on this, but actions speak louder than words, RU made the move so all of the ramblings of both sides are now irrelevant, 300k mobilized + 135k conscript about to enter the theater from the RU side, no one cares what anyone says anymore, everyone is watching whether US will commit to sending in tanks and trillions more in aid, or just offer more sanctions and a shipment of military scarfs and hats for the winter season.

Quote from: suchmoon on September 21, 2022, 11:58:56 AM

Not sure what you're still babbling about but you're scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

Quote from: DaRude on September 21, 2022, 06:42:46 AM

US using their soft power "freedom cookies" to pry Ukraine from Russia is all conspiracy theories because US assistant secretary and ambassadors give out cookies at every coup/revolution Huh

Ukraine hadn't been part of Russia for 20+ years at that point. They can do as they please, up to and including not having a pro-Russian president. Try to keep up.

And Cuba was never a part of USA, and thought they could do as they pleased too yet here we are.

Quote from: suchmoon on September 21, 2022, 11:58:56 AM

Quote from: DaRude on September 21, 2022, 06:42:46 AM

But to your point, if there's a will there's a way. Look I can even help you out and find justification to bring "freedom cookies" to Kazakhstan
[...]
Does anyone even need reasons to justify bringing freedom cookies to Belarus??

Again, relevance? Kazakhstan clearly doesn't want to be friends with Russia anymore (wonder why), and the dicktater of Belarus doesn't need any cookies to be deposed as soon as he loses Putin's support. None of that has much to do with justifying invasion into Ukraine.

Quote from: DaRude on September 21, 2022, 06:42:46 AM

In US One in every 36 Black Wisconsinites are in prison

Ah, Brezhnev propaganda making a comeback. That explains it. Makes totally justifiable for Putin to annex half of Europe because the US is... uhm... what is the point here exactly?

Quote from: DaRude on September 21, 2022, 06:42:46 AM

or US can go into deescalation stage

What is that magic "deescalation" that would somehow make all Ukrainians love Russia and stop fighting?

You'd claim not to see any relevance if it was written on your forehead. I don't think i can spell it out any clearer for you, sorry to burst your bubble but "west" cares about democracy in Ukraine just as much as it does in Belarus and Kazakhstan. Ukraine has a role to play in this game of geopolitics and it's role is of a pressure point for Russia. Once again, unless US commits trillions and tanks, you're about to see what deescalation looks like, but I'm afraid you're about to be disappointed

Quote from: suchmoon on September 21, 2022, 06:27:06 PM

Quote from: Branko on September 21, 2022, 01:45:10 PM

Do they have the right to have pro-Russian president?

Yes. Have you heard of elections?

Go on, don't be shy, do tell us how it went, let me help you out a bit

Quote

Obama Congratulates Ukraine’s Election Winner
The White House released a statement saying that Mr. Obama had called Mr. Yanukovich, the Ukrainian opposition leader, and wished him “success in carrying out his mandate.”
“This peaceful expression of the political will of Ukrainian voters is another positive step in strengthening democracy in Ukraine,” the statement said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/12/world/europe/12ukraine.html

Huh, how about that, "peaceful expression" well this doesn't fit your narrative at all! Care to now explain how all presidents are equal but some are more equal than others?