Quote from: TwitchySeal on Today at 06:01:02 AM

Quote from: DaRude on Today at 04:23:44 AM

So US is sending million 155mm shells, EU depleted their military stock reserves and about to loose heat during the winter, and Russia declaring mobilization. Like literally, what else needs to happen for people to stop pretending and start questioning that maybe, just maybe, this is much bigger than Ukraine??

Uhh, nobody is pretending that. Ukraine is receiving aid from the rest of the world because they know what happens when a psycho gets away with invading another country. If Putin were able to steam roll Kiev without any consequences, he wouldn't stop there. That's literally why NATO exists - to stop the next ass hole that wants to see how many countries he can conquer.

Quote from: DaRude on Today at 04:23:44 AM

If you remember before this all started Russia drew up it's security concerns and requested written reply from US, think it's now safe to assume what kind of finger was drawn on a paper that U.S. ambassador, John Sullivan handed back to Moscow.

Oh boo hoo. The US wouldn't let Putin dictate who was allowed to join an alliance that Russia is not a member of. That's how alliances work.

Quote from: DaRude on Today at 04:23:44 AM

Clearly US didn't take Russia's concerns seriously, as a final attempt to show that this is an existential threat for Russia Putin did more posturing, he sent a column of tanks directly to Kyiv. At that point all of EU knew just how serious the situation was, that this is an existential threat for Russia and RU is willing to make it's last stand over this, thus no one in EU expected for US to enable UA to just start taking out that column.

There was no existential threat for Russia. There might be now though. You can put 100% of the blame on Putin for that. And what is "this" Russia needs to annex a piece of Ukraine and then what? You think Ukraine won't continue on the path to joining the EU and eventually NATO? You think NATO won't continue to be more unified than almost any other point before February? How about the two countries that joined NATO in direct response to Putins decision to attack Ukraine? You think the rest of the world will just forget the weaknesses in the Russian military that have been exposed in the last 6 months? Putin already failed.

Let me try to summarize your arguments into bullet points, and you can tell me know how close was i to getting them right:

NATO is not a defensive pact for its members at all, but literally?? exists as sort of a world police to use its military power to stop any conflict around the globe it deems beneficial to it? Yemen? Kosovo blah blah blah etc etc etc
NATO's Article 5 is useless in protecting NATO members because in reality it's a non-EU non-NATO Ukraine that truly protects NATO (what will happen to NATO if Ukraine goes back under RU's sphere like with Yanukovych, did NATO not exist in 2013 )
Even though NATO can claim protection over non-NATO or any country in the world, and a non-NATO country somehow protects all NATO countries we should still care when a country officially joins NATO
There was no existential threat to Russia at all. It should continue to sit there quietly and watch how US assistant secretary and ambassadors bring even larger cookies to Belarus, Kazakhstan, Chechen Republic... that say property of Venezuela/Iraq/Libya/Yemen... surely those people deserve those democracy cookies just as much as Ukrainian people do right?
Somehow in similar circumstances Cuba was an existential threat to US to justify the blockade even today, just don't think about this one? And don't even think about bringing any cookies to Cuba?

I mean I get that that's what the propaganda wants you to believe, but surely you must see how the rest of the world just might have some issues with such logic. Regardless whether you agree with Russia, Russia indicated it's red lines and US decided to cross it. Selling the idea to population that somehow UA can take back Crimea without RU mobilizing, surely EU leaders knew that such idea was ludicrous now everyone is trying to figure out what was US's grand plan. At this point UK and EU is almost guaranteed to slip into recession, but US might stay flat by selling freedom gas and freedom oil to them.

Quote from: suchmoon on Today at 11:53:15 AM

Quote from: DaRude on Today at 04:23:44 AM

Russia's existence depends on it's resources and few allies it has left

Then maybe Putin shouldn't be invading (Ukraine) and refusing obligations towards (Armenia) potential allies, and fucking his resource export by walling the country off the rest of the world.

Quote from: DaRude on Today at 04:23:44 AM

everyone in EU is dumbfounded about this great American plan, tons of dead people, EU in recession, UA will be back under RU sphere of influence

Ukraine will not "be back under RU sphere of influence". The cost of that remains to be seen but your assessment of what EU "thinks" is absurd. Aside from Orban, the rest of Eastern Europe knows very well what Russia's sphere of influence means and that giving Putin (part of) Ukraine won't stop him from wanting part of Poland, Germany, or Portugal. That's an existential threat.

Quote from: DaRude on Today at 04:23:44 AM

Edit: Markets opened higher on a day Russia announced mobilization. If market is of any indication (as it has always historically been), no one is pricing in any serious escalation or mobilization of "western" economies to war footing.

Don't quit your troll farm to become a market analyst just yet.

Blah blah, and we're back to defining what a win and a loss means for both sides. Already 20% of Ukraine are set not to just go under RU's sphere of influence but will become RU! RU can justify their losses by gained territory, but i still don't think if it's a victory unless they get Odessa. But I'm perplexed by UA, what do you say when someone asks how we went from being mostly under RU's sphere in 2013 with some exposure to EU, and now after colossal looses, to completely loosing at least 20% of our land, potentially becoming a landlocked country, and now being fully reliant on RU/EU? I guess that's where the notion of fighting for Europe comes in, the only way i can think of spinning that is, this was all worth it because we kept Lviv and protected NATO/Poland/UK with our lives from evil Russian orcs. RU gets to do a victory parade in Odessa and UA in Lviv. As usual, tons of dead on both sides but everyone gets to claim a victory.

Your ad hominems always brighten my day Tongue