Quote from: suchmoon on September 23, 2022, 03:27:34 AM

Quote from: DaRude on September 22, 2022, 06:59:32 PM

Blah blah, and we're back to defining what a win and a loss means for both sides. Already 20% of Ukraine are set not to just go under RU's sphere of influence but will become RU!

There is nothing to define, at least for Ukraine - they have a very clear goal. If you're referring to Putin's constantly changing goals of the "special operation" - that's what you get for believing kremlin.

And no, it doesn't "become RU". That's not how it works.

Quote from: DaRude on September 22, 2022, 06:59:32 PM

RU can justify their losses by gained territory, but i still don't think if it's a victory unless they get Odessa. But I'm perplexed by UA, what do you say when someone asks how we went from being mostly under RU's sphere in 2013 with some exposure to EU, and now after colossal looses, to completely loosing at least 20% of our land, potentially becoming a landlocked country, and now being fully reliant on RU/EU?

That may have made some sort of sense before February 24 but no one really takes this seriously in Ukraine anymore. There is no 20% with Putin, there is no treaty he won't break, there is no peaceful coexistence, so it's not really a choice most Ukrainians waste time concerning themselves with. Either beat Putin and his mobilized cannon fodder or suffer another 70 years of holodomor/genocide/rusification/deportations/I'm sure I'm forgetting some other imperial "benefits".

Is UA's goal still to take Crimea? If so they must start doing work to manage expectations, "we tried to take Crimea, so we ended up loosing 20% of UA" just won't go down in history books for its great strategy. We protected NATO from RU sounds a tiny bit better. I just stated my personal opinion if Z stays in power and continues to hold Odessa I will fully admit that it won't be a full win for RU. See you can do these things when you're not just pushing propaganda, and always forced to claim that whatever happens is actually somehow good for your side. Putin's claimed goals of denazification and demilitarization are pretty amorphous so don't really see a point in changing them. I guess it won't "become RU" just as Donetsk and Crimea didn't became RU, doubt people living there care much about semantics.

I heard things were so terrible in 2010-2014 under RU leaning Yanukovych that 250% of population died from 3 holodomors and the other 1350% died from genocide in gulags just in the first year alone! In fact some say that, in 8yrs under RU people in Crimea, DNR, LNR were forced to eat raped Orc babies just to survive the winter!

Did a quick search on UA leaders in USSR and came up with the following:

Leon Trotsky-leader in the Bolshevik faction, headed the Red Army - Born in modern Ukraine, Nationality Ukrainian
Lazar Kaganovich-one of the main associates of Joseph Stalin, known for helping Stalin come to power, given the task of implementation of the collectivization policy that influenced the 1932–33 famine (known as the Holodomor) - Born in modern Ukraine
Nikita Khrushchev-Soviet leader, transferred the Crimean Oblast from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR - Ukrainian wife
Leonid Brezhnev-Soviet leader - Born in modern Ukraine, Nationality Ukrainian
Mikhail Gorbachev-Soviet leader - Half Ukrainian (mother's side)

It's literally easier to find a Soviet leader without UA connection
(UA source) in 2016 17% of Ukrainians have a positive attitude towards Joseph Stalin's activities, 1% of them admire. that's about 7,3million people in Ukraine

Quote from: TwitchySeal on September 23, 2022, 05:20:00 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on September 23, 2022, 03:27:34 AM

Quote from: DaRude on September 22, 2022, 06:59:32 PM

Blah blah, and we're back to defining what a win and a loss means for both sides. Already 20% of Ukraine are set not to just go under RU's sphere of influence but will become RU!

There is nothing to define, at least for Ukraine - they have a very clear goal. If you're referring to Putin's constantly changing goals of the "special operation" - that's what you get for believing kremlin.

And no, it doesn't "become RU". That's not how it works.

Take Kiev (Take 1,000 tanks to be blown up outside Kiev, retreat)
Decapitate the UA Government. (Zelinsky is now a global super star)
Stop Nato Expansion. (Nato Expanded almost instantly)
Denazify Ukraine. (Putin trades a bunch of Azof fighters for an oligarch buddy)

DaRube: "Blah blah, and we're back to defining what a win and a loss means for both sides."

Not following what you're alluding to here

Quote from: johhnyUA on September 23, 2022, 07:52:37 PM

Quote from: suchmoon on September 23, 2022, 03:27:34 AM

Quote from: DaRude on September 22, 2022, 06:59:32 PM

Blah blah, and we're back to defining what a win and a loss means for both sides. Already 20% of Ukraine are set not to just go under RU's sphere of influence but will become RU!

And no, it doesn't "become RU". That's not how it works.

Especially the fact that after retreat from Kharkiv oblast it already not like 20 %. A little bit less, around 12-15 %/

Quote from: LTU_btc on September 23, 2022, 07:49:47 PM

7 months of ''special operation'' and now Russia announced mobilization third time (After WWI and WWII). Everything is going fine. But why the hell it was needed if according to Russian data they have just about 6000 troops killed? Where are these 200k troops who went to this war initially? You're planning to take Ukraine with quantity, but quality also matters. I think there is big difference between contract army which was prepared for this ''operation'' and transcripts without experience in war and questionable motivation.
You're not doing very well with your future predictions. I hope I don't have to remind about 9th May parade in Kyiv.

As I know, russians will not train their conscripted "mobiks" because they have only one NATO-standard army polygon - in Mulino (it can train around 5-10k per month). So only few amount of mobilized people will get proper training.

Russia has a NATO-standard army polygon ?? But i'll leave these speculations up to you guys

Quote from: paxmao on September 23, 2022, 08:17:27 PM

Quote from: suchmoon on September 21, 2022, 07:03:54 PM

Quote from: Branko on September 21, 2022, 06:28:40 PM

Is that a process where you elect your representatives

Exactly.

Quote from: Branko on September 21, 2022, 06:28:40 PM

toppled in colored coup if not favored by USA?

Unlike dictators, elected officials are supposed to have accountability, and may even be forced to resign if they try sketchy shit like passing authoritarian laws. If USA doesn't favor authoritarians that's probably a good thing but to each their own.

A bit of whattabout, but US has favoured and favours any regime that is prone to let them do business on favourable terms. There is no moral superiority on how the US goes about supporting or not a certain government and that has been clear for decades (perhaps a century now) in Latin America.

Now, for me this is about the people of Ukraine. They need to be able to choose their destiny and my take is that they would rather not be under Adolf Putin and the army Chief Psychos.

But isn't it funny how things always work out like this. After being the most vocal on this, handing out freedom cookies and then buying 8yrs to prep UA while not even attending Minsk agreements and tarnishing their reputation like Germany and France, since Feb 2022 USD is up around 17% against EUR, and up 23% against GBP Grin

it's like magic. When someone looses money someone else must gain money, how many "freedom LNG" deliveries can Europe afford?