Quote from: suchmoon on October 03, 2022, 01:00:58 PM

Quote from: DaRude on October 03, 2022, 06:40:10 AM

Don't believe i ever claimed that AfD still has it's original leadership or didn't become more radical/right since 2013. Great history, but how is that relevant to the current point or is it just a weak straw man attempt? Explain again how your (or mine or anyone for that matter) personal feeling are relevant here? Do you feel there are many sane people in Giorgia Meloni party? Does it somehow change the fact that she won and "current" AfD is getting more and more support currently sitting at 15%? Looks like they've been calling themselves Eurosceptic since 2013, and called for Dexit at least since 2019.

[...]

super clear Cheesy

only you do realize it's "possible" for them to do so right this second if they wanted to, and what Ukraine is asking for. But we both know that there's a cost to that (lost jobs, bankrupt industries, loss to competitive advantage, inflation, other financial repercussion, social and political unrest etc etc etc...), and clearly so far Germany has decided that the cost of that outweighs the current benefits. When will the balance tip to closure who knows, but the other huge unknown is the weather. How long do you keep you industries running before cutting them off in order to build some buffer for home usage? Do you plan for an average winter? 3yr coldest? 5yr coldest? 10yr? What do you do if winter is unusually cold, or at least colder than you prepared for? What happens if you shut off gas for industrial use too soon and winter turns out to be mild?

All well-rehearsed Kremlin bullet points, except most people in Germany don't fall for that BS and tend to think increasingly more like 1miau, who happens to be from Germany, I mean what a shocking turn of events this is not.

Loading...

(the poll question is "should we support Ukraine despite rising energy costs")

Quote from: DaRude on October 03, 2022, 06:40:10 AM

All of your points rely on NordStream just being a useless pipeline, can you then explain the tweet by former Polish Deputy Minister of National Defense/Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and current elected member of the European parliament Radoslaw Sikorski thanking USA, is Poland supporting Russia now?

Still not getting how the whole freedom of speech / democracy thing works, are you? Hint: in normal non-Putin countries people, even MEPs, often have differing opinions, make stupid jokes, or could simply be wrong.

Good job, did you figure out that 15% < most, all by yourself or someone helped you? If most Germans already (in the beginning of October!) thought otherwise we probably wouldn't have this conversation. Any way, how does that poll compare to actual results of more people voting for ultra right parties that support buying more resources from Russia?

But if you like polls so much how about this one?

Quote

New poll signals Americans are growing tired of support for Ukraine without diplomacy as the war against Russia drags on
...
The poll found that a majority of Americans want the US to pursue diplomatic negotiations to end the war ASAP.
The poll also showed that many Americans are concerned about the financial costs of the conflict.
...
According to a poll conducted by the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft and Data for Progress, 57% of likely voters strongly or somewhat support the US pursuing diplomatic negotiations as soon as possible to end the war in Ukraine, even if it requires Ukraine making compromises with Russia. Just 32% of respondents were strongly or somewhat opposed to this.

And nearly half of the respondents (47%) said they only support the continuation of US military aid to Ukraine if the US is involved in ongoing diplomacy to end the war, while 41% said they support the continuation of US military aid to Ukraine whether the US is involved in ongoing diplomacy or not.

https://news.yahoo.com/poll-signals-americans-growing-tired-140000496.html

Haha good angle, US couldn't possibly had anything to do with NordStream only Putin Orc propaganda trolls could possibly claim anything otherwise. What a member of EU parliament thanked US for blown NS?!? Well, he must be either joking, or just plain wrong, just pick yourself whichever you want to believe in more Grin

Quote from: 1miau on October 03, 2022, 05:38:13 PM

Quote from: DaRude on October 03, 2022, 06:40:10 AM

Looks like they've been calling themselves Eurosceptic since 2013, and called for Dexit at least since 2019.

14 Apr 2013 The Guardian

Quote

Joachim Starbatty speaks out as breakaway Eurosceptic party Alternative für Deutschland holds founding conference
...
One of Germany's most eminent economists has called for the swift dissolution of the eurozone in its present form, arguing that the vision of a united Europe is in danger of imploding if debt-ridden countries are not shown the door.
...
Therefore it would be better if these countries that are not competitive, like Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy, etc, were to leave." An alternative, he argued, would be for Germany to leave.
...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/14/german-economist-eurozone-eu

06.09.2013 Spiegel

Quote

Anti-Euro Party Surges Before Election
...
By sticking to its simple, euroskeptic line, the AfD has inhabited a gap in the political market.
...
When asked whether the anti-euro party could enter the Bundestag, Schöppner says: "That's impossible for me to say."

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/alternative-for-germany-anti-euro-party-could-upset-german-election-a-920805.html

You are making that mistake again: one or even a few people in a party demanding one thing isn’t the party line at all. Cheesy

If you think AfD has been of one and the same opinion in 2013, you are misguided. Even the fascist Bernd Höcke has been into AfD in 2013. But politicians demanding to break away from the EU / supporting far right propaganda were a minority back then and their opinions weren’t the party line back then. The party line in 2013 was to reform the EU, not leave it.
The party line later shifted to abolish the EU, but that wasn’t the party line in 2013.
In addition: Eurosceptic ≠ Break away from the EU
Eurosceptic: sceptical of how Euro is managed by ECB, sceptical how the European Parliament is making politics, sceptical how Germany was paying money to Italy / Greece....
Things are much more nuanced than in your limited world view.

Quote from: DaRude on October 03, 2022, 06:40:10 AM

13 Jan 2019 The Guardian

Quote

AfD party votes to campaign for German exit from EU
...
The decision on Sunday marks the first time any party has called for “Dexit” – a German departure from the EU in the mould of Brexit.
If the EU is not reshaped in line with the party’s ideas “in an appropriate timeframe”, Germany must leave the bloc, according to the draft manifesto for the forthcoming European parliament elections agreed by delegates at a party congress in the eastern state of Saxony.
...
Congress attendees also voted through a call to abolish the European parliament – the very body that AfD candidates will be campaigning to join this spring.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/13/afd-party-to-campaign-for-german-exit-from-european-union

Exactly, 2019, the party line was to abolish the EU.
2013 ≠ 2019

Quote from: DaRude on October 03, 2022, 06:40:10 AM

Quote

NATO Vows Retaliation for Attacks on Infrastructure
...
NATO vowed retaliation Thursday for attacks on the critical infrastructure of its 30 member nations, while strongly suggesting the rupture of two Baltic Sea pipelines meant to send natural gas from Russia to Germany was the direct result of sabotage.

Ambassadors to NATO, the West's key military alliance, said in a statement, "Any deliberate attack against allies' critical infrastructure would be met with a united and determined response." They said four ruptures in the pipelines were of "deep concern."

https://www.voanews.com/a/nato-vows-retaliation-for-attacks-on-infrastructure-blames-sabotage-for-pipe-blasts-/6769142.html

First thing: it's a general comment on critical NATO infrastructure of its 30 member nations.
Second thing: attacking NATO infrastructure should not be accepted at all and it doesn't matter if it's obsolete soon or newly build (or both Tongue

).

You're making a mistake thinking anyone should blindly trust an anonymous forum member claiming to be German over "limited" internationally recognized sources, but looks like you found someone that would do just that.

I'm not sure why you keep on attacking the straw man that you built yourself. Not sure how i can make it any clearer, let me spell it out hopefully one last time I do not know, nor care what AfD stood for in 2013 or how much it changed since then, I only cited their current political position and their growing support. Seems you have some personal grievances with the party, and feel the need to discuss how the party has historically changed since 2013?

Quote

Republican politician Marjorie Taylor Greene has sparked controversy by saying that she does not believe Russian president Vladimir Putin is behind the sabotage of the two Nord Stream pipelines.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/marjorie-taylor-greene-pushes-theory-putin-not-behind-nord-stream-sabotage/ar-AA12xh5q

How many more seats do you think US ultra rights will get in November Roll Eyes