Quote from: paxmao on October 13, 2022, 01:27:58 PM

Quote from: DaRude on October 13, 2022, 01:28:21 AM

Quote from: paxmao on October 12, 2022, 11:49:31 PM

Quote from: DaRude on October 12, 2022, 05:06:07 AM

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Quote from: paxmao on October 10, 2022, 01:33:54 PM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 10, 2022, 12:02:27 PM

Quote from: DaRude on October 10, 2022, 02:53:22 AM

Right now we're pretending to not know the difference between old Soviet junk and modern tanks? But please entertain us with your version of why NATO is not sending modern tanks to UA? Perhaps they're too busy playing Dota? Or requests just keep getting lost? Or they can send millions of 155mm shells but logistics to send tanks are just too hard? Or they're secret RU Orcs too?

It's the same old Soviet junk that Russia is planning to win the war with, or better. I still don't know why you're so obsessed with tanks - or only specific brands of tanks - as if that constitutes a worse threat to Russia than e.g. HIMARS, but Russia already lost a shitload of tanks (being captured or destroyed by Ukraine) and can't make anymore, so it doesn't really take a math genius to see where the balance shifting.

Quote from: DaRude on October 10, 2022, 02:53:22 AM

Sure let's extend all this effort for a high probability of a worse outcome? Worked so great in Afghanistan and Libya right?

I think you've missed the point. There is no "good" outcome. Let's say Putin takes Ukraine. Then he wants Poland. The whole thing starts over, just much worse.

Quote from: DaRude on October 10, 2022, 02:53:22 AM

Right how mobilized Russians with previous combat experience could possibly compare with super mega ultra warrior conscripts of Ukraine and super sober uber special forces of the 8th? mobilization wave of Ukraine? Roll Eyes

Not the best of your straw people. I'm talking about the Russian forces.

The 200k invasion army was supposedly better trained and better equipped and had other advantages like robust air support and still functioning supply lines. What happened to those soldiers? No one cares, let's throw another 300k into it, just with less of everything, and see how that works out. Maybe shift some generals around, yeah, that'll do it.

Pretty much spot on. He takes Crimea, then Easter Ukraine and the Fakepublics of the Dombas, then a corridor to the Fakepublic of Transnistria, they liberating the oppressed Russian living un Hungary, then a corridor to Konigsberg, ... From the European perspective, this has to end here and now. From the Ukrainian perspective, they do not want to be drafted as slaves, not having to survive the next Holodomor nor be the buffer for Putin's aggressions. And believe that some of the fighters in Ukraine speak well of the Commies, so Adolf Putin must have gotten something really wrong here.

Regarding soviet equipment, some people say that it is running thin, my personal take is that there is still a lot of rusty old iron. It is not fit for a modern war, but it kills when used and they do have a shitload of it. The issue is if in modern RF there is still space for a forceful recruiting of an army of slaves - Adolf Putin may have gotten that wrong too.

Slippery slope argument Haha this is a good spin, NATO playing a victim card, original! Russia is down to bare bones of RU speaking Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Belarus. So if NATO doesn't expand to these countries right now that would be a gateway to RU taking over Ireland or Canada next! Roll Eyes

are we hoping that no one here has mental capacity to remember 2013 when UA had a pro RU president and that Transnistria has been with RU since 1990s and no one cared for that anymore than for Belarus president being the last European dictator
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Again, an historic argument that does not matter at all because you cannot get out the middle-age thinking of "this belong to Russia", "This territory was Russia when my grandad lived there..." The territories belong to the people who live in them, the fakeferendums can only create fakepublics.

Ukraine is trying to get away from the world of Tzars and Kings that held the land as a personal possession. You need to get on a time machine and get back to the XII century where your brain is. While you wait for it to be invented, you can just travel back in this thread where those arguments have been shown wrong over an over - starting by the fact that the origin of the Rus (modern Russians) is Kiev.

Quote from: DaRude on October 12, 2022, 09:34:33 PM

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Quote from: DaRude on October 12, 2022, 05:06:07 AM

Last i checked almost 1000km line of engagement still stands with RU even making some progress in some sections

You're cute when you don't have a counter argument Tongue

perhaps add a picture of burning Russian tank next time to really drive home your point?

The picture is a clear argument. Russian slave orcs are going to Moscow ... just for a coffee Boris... yes, back in no time.

As much as it's middle-age thinking you cannot deny that it's current reality. Cuba is still under US blockade just because of it's proximity to US, and US considering sanctions against Saudi Arabia not because they kill journalists and oppress women but because they didn't lower oil price and agreed to buyers cartel before November mid-term US elections (not to mention North Korea, Venezuela, Syria ...). You can even block deliveries of resources between separate countries, Germany even wanted to give US 1bil just for the privilege to turn on NordStream2, pretty savage right? Sorry to break this to you but this is how this cruel world still works, just because it's called soft power doesn't mean it doesn't cost lives, that's the benefit of being the world power and having reserve currency, you literally get to fuck around with anyone on this planet.

Another sorrowful base argument: you cannot change anything, this is the way it works so you have to live with it. You may have been living under a despot for too long to see anything else. Or even a worse one: "since you cannot always implement socially liberal and representative policies, then is better to not do it ever". That is your bottom line.

Yet here we are, people in Ukraine that are not willing to submit to the Tzar. That is real, you have it there. Medieval thinking does not work well in the Internet era.

You view is very partial and certainly you are not discovering anything, just trying to make Adolf Putin's attitude "the only possible course of action" - which certainly is not. You are putting the focus on countries that are ruled by despots because that is what you understand, but most of the developed world is based on representative governments (I do not want to discuss how democratic). And yes, we do have to live with Kings and Tzars and have diplomatic and commercial relations with them, but at least some of us want to press to make those regimes eventually representative.

Whattabout the Kingdom of Arabia? They are using the chance to favour their economy with disregard of their allies. There is price to pay. Nothing to do with their record as slavery and human rights abuse.

Let me ask you a question: How are human resources for construction works organised in Arabia, Oman, Dubai and EA? Do you know how they do it? Do you think "that's the world it is and there is nothing to be done?"

Not sure if your assessment could be anymore wrong. If you really want to solve the problem, you need to start at the root cause of the problem, and not at its symptoms. You cannot box by the rules when the other guy is twice your size and doesn't follow them, that's just not how the real world works. US having a full hegemony put in place some terrible precedence, "operations" instead of wars, private military companies, use of nukes, financial and political coercion of other governments, disregarding international laws, sanctioning international court judges, human rights abuses, bombing of other nations infrastructure without UN etc etc etc... And now when (so far) local conflict touches you personally you cannot possibly act surprised when the world doesn't rise up on your calls that NOW suddenly everyone should start to care about the rules and start changing things Roll Eyes

We're back to the ‘For my friends, everything, for my enemies, the law’ logic. Laws either have to be consistent or shouldn't exist. Arbitrary application of laws, double standards and hypocrisy just makes a mockery of the whole system. Biggest players should start following laws before trying to shame others, it's akin of discussing global police abuse and starting with Ukraine while not mentioning police issues in US/Russia/China (cause suchmoon would be yelling whataboutism). It would be obvious to even casual observer that there's agenda at play and Ukraine is being used as a scapegoat.

It's an illusion, Ukraine is not big enough to hold on it's own, so it must submit to one Tzar or the other. Ukraine is already in shackles with A $20 billion programme would be the second largest currently active loan from the IMF after Argentina. All of this is outside of Ukraine's control, and i have nothing but pity for the people, as they're just pawns in this big game. But at the same time when two behemoths are battling it out, I'm very skeptical of any small nation that would willingly make itself into a battlefront proclaiming that it's protecting/fighting for the survival of one of the behemoths. Smart thing would be to stay quiet and watch how it plays out. Either Grandiose delusions or people have been brainwashed into doing someone else's bidding by constant propaganda of being "de facto" in NATO and fighting for Poland/NATO/EU/Papua New Guinea/World. Outcome is already shaping out and this is how it'll be sold to the people:

Russia-we got more land out of this and kept our dominance on EU resource markets
US-with only few billion spent and minimal losses we set Russia back some X years
Europe-WTF just happened!?!
Ukraine-Sure with out great decision we lost more of our population and land than was even discussed and agreed to at the beginning during negotiations, but take comfort in knowing that we saved Galapagos islands, we realize that this hypothetical cannot possibly be checked so population just needs to trust us when we say if we haven't thrown thousands of our soldiers at this, Orcs would've taken over Lviv and Galapagos islands would be next
China-

Human rights in middle east is shit. But now ask yourself why is it? Then ask what is the currency in Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE (Dubai), Bahrain, and Qatar? Surely there are not all pegged and completely reliant to USD couldn't be right? Now ask yourself why there so much human rights abuse in those countries? Is that cause with total financial control US just can't do anything about it? Or because US doesn't want to do anything about it, all of the money it sends there for oil come back into it's financial system anyway which they can later use to offer bigger cookie to Ukrainian/Belarus/Kazakhstan/Taiwan countries surrounding other world powers. And people, people just want to live their lives and are easily influence by a bigger cookie until suddenly they find themselves fighting for their lives. And there's nothing in your plan of changes from preventing this from happening over and over again