Quote from: bitterguy28 on October 14, 2023, 04:58:59 AM

Quote from: Sayeds56 on October 14, 2023, 12:05:48 AM

Certainly, it would be unwise decision, as suggested by @Jay to invest money in Bitcoin (highly volatile and risky asset) that is meant for essential expenses. It can indeed lead to financial trouble. Therefore, the key takeaway is to prioritize financial stability and have well thought out investment plan that doesn't jeopardize immediate needs.

have Funds in bitcoin (that can completely risk) and have funds for daily needs and for emergency as well , never to combined your for use money to for investing.
People who lose in their investing are those people that wanted an easy money when they don't fully understand how risky crypto investing is.

Quote from: Sayeds56 on October 14, 2023, 12:05:48 AM

Understanding the distinction between investing and gambling is vital. Investing is like planting a tree and waiting for it to bear fruit, while gambling is like taking chance for quick wins, relying on luck rather than a long-term strategy.

back in the day , I tend to believe that Investing in crypo is like gambling but not when i started to understand like how you explained here .
that this is like fruit bearing trees vs Luck .

I am pretty sure that I agree with almost everything that you say bitterguy28 if you are talking about bitcoin - and surely you use the term crypto, so then I become confused if you are talking about the same thing since we are not talking about Crypto here in this thread... and therefore I am a bit unclear why you choose to use the word crypto. Is it necessary? Does it add anything to what you are saying?

Surely investing in crypto is likely to be risky as fuck, especially if we might not even know what it is that is being referred to. I surely wouldn't invest much if anything into crypto.. maybe a few percent of the size of my bitcoin, and I could understand that some people might want to play around with a higher percentage of their bitcoin stash.. but still going any greater than 10% would be difficult to justify absent some kinds of compelling reason about one or more of the shitcoins and then that investment would be particular to that particular one and how it might compare and contrast to bitcoin... but still we are not really talking about those kinds of considerations and calculations in this thread.

Do you think that if you changed your use of the word crypto to bitcoin, then you would be able to say the same thing that you already said, or why would you have felt that you need to bring up crypto when we are talking about bitcoin in this thread?

Do you think that the same principles apply to crypto as apply to bitcoin? That is confusing to just think about and surely I have my doubts..

I think it is a distraction, a bit misleading, and potentially gets us off track to be using the word "crypto" without clarifying what it is that you consider that you are talking about and/or making it clear why you chose to use such a word when you might have had really meant to use the word bitcoin, but you wanted to sound smarter, so you used the term "crypto" to suggest that whatever you were saying had broader applications beyond bitcoin.. Is that it?

Quote from: Dictator69 on October 14, 2023, 06:16:17 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on October 04, 2023, 02:03:33 PM

I made conscious decisions to leave value with both Bitfinex and BTC-e.. .. and there were times in which I changed my mind about how much BTC I was keeping with various third parties, and also coming to find out about how easy sim attacks make people vulnerable .. and they are still going on now... but in 2017, they were less common, but I probably should have realized a bit better regarding the sim swap attack vector.. .. so then if something like that ends up happening, there are ways to change some approaches in order to make funds less vulnerable to that attack vehicle, even though, sometimes, some funds might still be vulnerable through other attack mechanism.

We all make mistakes and put trust in things, in which we should not. I was not aware of the sim swap attack (basically from the term) but it really is scary, that someone could steal your phone number, but I am curious how a scammer would do that because to do that, a scammer would need some basic information. For example, In our country, when we have to change the number of one sim to another sim or to another number, it is compulsory for the real owner of the sim to be present at the franchise, (we cannot do that from home) and there we have to verify our fingerprints and then we are given the new sim with the same or new number (that depends on our need). I don't know how things work on your side, but I would love to know.

I don't want to get into too many details in this thread, and sure there likely are variations from country to country, but also sometimes there could be rogue actors who work for the companies too (at the employee level that end up getting access to such information and they could be part of the problem).

I think that more and more protections have gone into place since early 2017, at the time of my incident, but there are still incidents of sim swaps still happening through various weak points that might exist.. and surely hackers are able to stay up-to-date on some of the latest and greatest of possible vulnerable areas.

Sometimes they might not need very much information because if they get one or two of the passwords to your e-mail, and then they change the e-mail password and then they might log into various websites in which recovery of the password is the e-mail or the phone.. so then once the get a few of these pieces, then they don't need the password, and they can reset password and even sometimes set up things in their own name and surely they have orders to things in terms of which accounts to get first before going after subsequent accounts. Sometimes people are not even available and realizing that they are being sim swap attacked until the next day because they might not be getting notifications, and surely one of the things that was strange about mine is that it seems that I caught it right away, and so I called up my phone company and they switched it back to me but then it kept switching back to the hacker.. so it wasn't like I wasn't trying to stay on top of things, but surely mistakes end up being made on my end too.. because sometimes there can be false senses of security when getting access back to the phone and/or the e-mails that were used.. but then by the time that the hacker goes through with the attack it seems that there might be multiple persons and/or a team doing a lot of things at once. .and even faster than you might think that they are able to do and questioning if you might shutdown your various bitcoin related accounts before they log into them.

Quote from: Dictator69 on October 14, 2023, 06:16:17 AM

I did search about SIM swap attacks and how we can avoid them, what I found is:

Use of multi-signature wallet
hardware wallet
not making accounts on phone numbers

And talking about other attacks, like hacking attempts i.e., phishing links etc, that's what you are talking about?

There sometimes can be some ways that some data can get leaked and you might not know that they got your password.. to an e-mail or something, and so once they have their foot in the door they might be able to get at other things and reset other things. Sure there can be ways to use different e-mails for resetting or even using various authenticators and/or UBKey type devices that would make it more difficult for an attacker to get into as many accounts.. and using Sms authentication does tend to be a weak point when hackers get your phone number.

Quote from: Dictator69 on October 14, 2023, 06:16:17 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on October 04, 2023, 02:03:33 PM

Some losses are BIGGER than others, and frequently there are ways to protect yourself even when taking risks, but one of the things about risks is that we don't always realize some of the risks that we are taking or we assign the wrong values and might end up with losses from which are more difficult to recover... financially and/or psychologically...

You are damn right, we take risk, and we don't even have idea that we are taking one, the best example I am seeing in current time is, many new investors of BTC, are investing in BTC and saying that they will make profit for sure as they think halving is coming and their funds will be doubled or tripled. But what I think is, they are ignoring the risk factor it has. Market's history is so obvious that, anyone would be convinced that market will go up but nobody sees at the risk side. I think they should realize it before it is too late for them.

Of course, when electing between asset classes, and getting involved in shitcoins, then there is a need to consider both upside and downside rather than just upside potential.. while at the same time, I was not really talking about shitcoins, so the framework could be that as long as you understand that you can lose 100% of your bitcoin investment, then you should be able to invest (or position size) according to that understanding. In other words, each of us should be prepared for the possibility that bitcoin could go to zero... so if we invest accordingly, we still could end up profiting a lot, even though we were prepared for the possibility that we might not profit.

If you don't use leverage or engage in other crazy ways of investing into bitcoin, then the most you could lose would be 100%... but if you do some of that leveraging and/or gambling with your bitcoin, you could either lose more or just lose it way faster, like several of those folks who were investing into various scams in 2021/2022 and many of them came crashing down (such as Celsius, Voyager, Blockfi, FTX, Terra/Luna, 3AC and maybe even Genesis and GBTC going through some of those uncertainties.. and sure there were some others, too), and some of those guys lost a lot of money, even though bitcoin did not go to zero.. Some of us regular BTC HODLers suffered from the BTC price going down, but then some of it has since recovered.. so we might not feel too bad as long as we continue to hold BTC and also some of us continued to buy BTC when the prices were going down too... or just buying on a regular basis, which should prove to be a decent way to have good potentials for longer term profits (but not guaranteed to accomplish such).

Quote from: Dictator69 on October 14, 2023, 06:16:17 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on October 04, 2023, 02:03:33 PM

There are a lot of ways that people go through and deal with losses, and surely if all of the value was ONLY in BTC, then there might be more devastation.. but if the person had various other non-btc investments (such as stocks, properties, bonds and cash) that might have had been equal to 20 or 30 BTC at the time that s/he lost the 20 BTC, then there still is a nestegg of value in some other location.. so the loss in terms of half of the BTC portfolio might seem large in the short term, but there are various other reserve assets in other places... so such loss is not totally devastating.. only partially devastating..

You are talking about diversification, and I agree with you on this, I have read about diversification strategy to minimize the risk in making investments and also aware of its perks. I sometimes, think, a person who is in BTC, might not have enough funds to make investments in other types, but what solution I have is, to keep that extra amount in cash, because, like you said those who will have all of their capital and savings in BTC, have to face devastation. So, a person should know the difference between capital and savings and they should at least keep their savings in the form of fiat. What do you think?

At least you should be making sure to monitor your cashflows, and if your expenses are in some kind of a fiat, it is good to make sure that you project out your cashflows for 6 to 24 months.. and account for regular expenses (fluctuations in cashflow that could come from changes in expenses and also changes in income), and also maintaining some kinds of funds in a kind of emergency fund.. which may well be in fiat because that would most likely be how the emergency expenses would get paid if such emergencies were to occur.

Quote from: Dictator69 on October 14, 2023, 06:16:17 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on October 04, 2023, 02:03:33 PM

one of the funny things about bitcoin (or maybe any other greatly appreciating asset, that sometimes very large mistakes can be made, but mostly HODLers/accumulators still can end up making money, even if they might have made less money from their mistakes, they still can end up making money in some kinds of scenarios, as long as they don't get totally reckt, and this case, holding onto half of the BTC was part of the explanation for the devastation not being as bad as it could have had been.

Agreed.

Quote from: JayJuanGee on October 04, 2023, 02:03:33 PM

I surely am not of the perspective that anyone should be waiting... but instead if such person does not have an emergency fund in place and does not have very many back up resources, then s/he can still invest into bitcoin, but just take a smaller position size while s/he is working on shoring up various ways to draw from emergency funds.

Agreed, because many people do wait and totally depends on the investments, they have made in BTC like they think they would become millionaire overnight. The reality is a man has to push harder and break the limits he has set for himself. In simple words, we should not remain in our comfort zone, and should take risks and not depend on that risk only but we should work on other opportunities. Really mate you have an entrepreneurial mindset, like those financial motivators on TikTok (I hope you won't mind TikTok Cheesy

as many people hate when someone compares them with TikTok stars) or on any social media platform. Trying hard to motivate new generations.

Yes, I am sure some of the frameworks that "influencers" use are better than others.. and repackaging of good ideas does seem to happen, whether here or through some of the influencers, and surely whether you are communicating with me or you are considering what any influencer is saying, there are likely some times when you will disagree with parts, but you might not exactly know why right away, but surely the back and forth can create for some kinds of active and interactive learning where you end up learning more because you engaged in some back and forth, some skepticism, some critical thinking and probably overall trying to apply the ideas to your own ideas and/or practices.

Quote from: Dictator69 on October 14, 2023, 06:16:17 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on October 04, 2023, 02:03:33 PM

so maybe instead of investing $100 per week into bitcoin, you only invest $10 per wee into bitcoin and use the other $90 per week to get your other shit together.. and so maybe it takes you 1-2 years before you can get your shit together sufficiently enough that you can move your weekly investment size up to $100 per week, but in the meantime, you had been investing $10 per week while you were putting in order other aspects of your financial and psychological life.

But there is one more side of this, for example, a person is losing shit, have enough money to feed himself and the family, or whatever other basic needs he has to fill, after that, if that person not able to safe funds or able to safe funds, one thing came up to his/her mind. And that is skepticism, they just don't want to take risk and want to leave that circle that they draw around themselves. I hope you are getting my point here. And this happens due to the doubt, ambiguity and fear in their minds and hearts, they know they might not bear the risk's results.

Yes.. maybe I assumed that once a person has already decided that s/he is getting into bitcoin, then that person is largely considering position size and how to advance from being able to invest $10 per week and getting up to a higher amount, such as $100 per week.. S/he already had the conviction, and surely there are so many people who do not have conviction, and maybe they still might choose to invest $10 per month because of their skepticism...

but if they cannot even bring themselves to do anything , then they will just have to enter bitcoin at some later date, which might be 1-2 years later, or maybe 5-8 years later, or maybe 20 years later, but the person who got started earlier is likely going to be in a much better position than the person who is taking longer to get past his/her skepticism.. and we cannot force the matter, because no coiners/low coiners will come to bitcoin at their own pace, and surely some of them might be rich enough and/or smart enough to make up for their not having had been involved in bitcoin earlier, but surely I have my doubts about the later arriver going to be able to catch up to an equally positioned earlier arriver... of course, no guarantees, so we don't really know for sure.

Quote from: Dictator69 on October 14, 2023, 06:16:17 AM

So, I think that it is better to error on the side of getting started bitcoin sooner rather than later, even if you have various messes in your life that you simultaneously having to actively work upon.

I think that is probably the main point, and surely people will frequently try to fight ideas of getting into bitcoin and sometimes even have some valid excuses of messes in their finances and/or psychology... but that seems to be mostly a position size situation and also a kind of learn as you go and organize yourself while you are going kind of a situation.. and bitcoin has the potential to help people with their finances and psychology, but it could take 4-10 years or longer to play out before starting to feel the improvements and/or the increased options that come available.. again, not guaranteed.

Quote from: Dictator69 on October 14, 2023, 06:16:17 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on October 04, 2023, 02:03:33 PM

Sorry to cause so much work upon you.... hahahahaha.....yeah.. sometimes there are no real needs to respond further.

nah, that's actually not that much work for me to read your posts, instead it is kind of good, and while reading and writing to you, I don't keep track of time, and once I finished writing to you then I think, I spend this much time (just to clarify, I actually not spend that much time like hours). Like, now, I am still replying late, but this time the reason was work, and the tiredness of work. But today I was free so I thought I should reply you, it's not that I was not making posts, I was, but to read your replies, I have to be on laptop, because on laptop, it becomes easy to edit the reply.

I am glad that we got that cleared up, then.

I tend to write the vast majority of my posts on a computer. It can be a bit difficult to type very much on a mobile device, unless maybe there might be a keyboard or an ability to use reliable diction.

Quote from: macson on October 14, 2023, 10:21:11 AM

Quote from: Roseline492 on October 13, 2023, 10:22:43 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on October 13, 2023, 07:02:00 PM

snip

@Jay you have really impacted a lot of knowledge on me which has been helping me on my Bitcoin journey I could remember when I came here with a less knowledge about strategies of accumulation using DCA, with this tread I was able understand and add the knowledge I have gathered from here to my existing ones which has been very helpful.

Referring back to your comments, of course is very unwise to uses the money that's meant for other expenses to invest because he is likely going to get into trouble later on because when the need will arise he will be left with no option but to sell off the investment. Perhaps this could be referred as an ignorant investor whom sees a possibility of getting into trouble if taking a certain decision but still went ahead.

Jay's opinion is the best at the moment to encourage us to invest wisely, because investing without knowledge and also having a target is just a gambling activity.

why is the DCA concept highly recommended to every bitcoin investor because that way you have full control over the money you make, for example every month you make $1k from the work or business you do and you invest $300 or $400 every month to buy bitcoin, so you still have around 65% of the money you earn left, you can use it for your daily needs and set aside a little for your emergency fund, however, this emergency fund is what you can use later for urgent expenses, so you don't sell Bitcoin that you invested so far.

An overwhelming majority of people are not able to invest 30% to 40$ of their regular income to buy BTC or even to make any other investment/savings... even though surely there are some who are able to do it and even some who force themselves to do it by cutting their expenses and living very humbly in light of their income.

Many people do not save or invest at all, so getting them up to something like 10% tends to be a BIG improvement in terms of what they had been doing, and surely I am not against the idea of investing more. I had some times in my life that I was investing close to 40%.. but most of my life I stuck with around 10%.. so situations will vary and people can ONLY do what they are able to do, and sometimes, they might start out small and work up to larger amounts with time and paying a lot of attention to what they are doing which presumptively would be purposefully focusing on increasing their bitcoin holdings/exposure.

Quote from: junder on October 14, 2023, 02:17:01 PM

With the increasing dominance of bitcoin, it will certainly be a good thing for all who understand bitcoin. Those who just know or even beginners have not realized that bitcoin will be profitable for their future, even though this is a good investment but in the long run but even though it will take a long time there will be satisfying results.

I have a couple of concerns.

First, I doubt that looking at bitcoin in terms of whether it is dominant or not is a very good and/or helpful way of looking at and/or considering the extent to which bitcoin is a good investment (as compared with other possible investments).

Second, it is a bit sloppy for you to suggest that there is some kind of a guarantee in bitcoin, even though bitcoin has been a good investment and has decently good chances to continue to be a good investment, it is not guaranteed to have "satisfying results."