Quote from: tvbcof on Today at 10:44:22 AM

Quote from: cpu6502 on Today at 09:06:54 AM

Quote from: tvbcof on Today at 03:35:55 AM

Russia always said that their interest was to de-militarize Ukraine, and that they are doing better than even they probably thought possible.

That hasn't worked out too well then. Another self-inflicted strategic failure from Russia.

It's worked very well, and the West/NATO has been notably demilitarized as well. Not to mention, shocked/scared-straight, and indeed alliances have developed markedly in Russian favor.

Quote from: cpu6502 on Today at 09:06:54 AM

Quote from: tvbcof on Today at 03:35:55 AM

Territorial/economic gains would seem to be an unanticipated windfall.

Trust me, it was anticipated.

Why would I trust you? There seems to be no reason to do so and it would appear the opposite. Not to say you do or don't believe what you say, but it's obviously wrong no matter the case.

Quote from: cpu6502 on Today at 09:06:54 AM

Quote from: tvbcof on Today at 03:35:55 AM

They have more of an ethical obligation than a simple opportunity take it as such, and the people living in the areas they appropriate will be the lucky ones if the last 20 or so years is anything to go by.

So you're suggesting Ukrainians stuck in occupied stolen land that have lost their freedom are the lucky ones?

Russia is not my cup of tea when it comes to 'freedom', but quality of life is certainly better in a number of ways than it ever was for the average Ukrainian. At least since the former Soviet Union stopped being gutted by the West thanks largely to Putin.

Quote from: cpu6502 on Today at 09:06:54 AM

Quote from: tvbcof on Today at 03:35:55 AM

The citizens voted overwhelmingly to do that in the areas where they had an opportunity to do so.

Voting with a gun pointed at your head is not voting. There's been no voting in occupied land.

It was the West who vehemently attempted to stamp out any observations of the elections which Russia instigated when they absorbed the new (and yet to be fully conquered) areas. I mean new since the Bolsheviks and later Soviet 'communists' labeled it part of Ukraine and the West/Ukro-nazis started harming the Russian speaking citizenry in order to induce Russia to take action. Very unwisely it would seem; RAND corp must not have mentioned that if their clients got the war they were seeking it probably would not work out well for them, but to be fair to RAND, that analysis probably was not part of the contract.

Also the peace treaty they signed with Zelenskii had the Russians leaving most of the economic areas. That was the one which was reneged on by the Ukrainians after Boris Johnson made a hurried trip to Kiev. Surely you remember that.

Quote from: cpu6502 on Today at 09:06:54 AM

All the above is just meaningless Kremlin propaganda.

They do a good job at spinning a story which happens to align well with observations, has few conflicts, and has great explanatory power then. These combined inevitably indicate a high degree of objective reality.

See what I mean. Standard propaganda scripted stuff.
West fault, dubious peace deals, Ukrainian Nazis.. helping them out..... etc.. etc...

It's just getting boring now. They are not even trying anymore to come up with fresh new stuff.