Quote from: Ricardo11 on Today at 10:59:45 AM

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 09:21:04 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on Today at 06:21:21 AM

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I only have a simple question to ask you because your disciples don't really understand bitcoin investment. And the question is:
Is there long term and short term investment in bitcoin? Or it is only long term investment of bitcoin and there is no short term investment of bitcoin at all? Because from my research on bitcoin investment there two categories to invest in bitcoin. Short term investment and long term investment. But it seeing you are abandoning the short term investment and only telling people about the long term investment. And as a teacher like me, you have to tell your disciples the two and they will decide which one to follow because not everyone can endure for the long term investment. And anyone who made a comment on short term investment here must be attacked by them because the orientation given to them here is only for the long term investment.

So I want to know from you. Is bitcoin investment is only for long term and no short term? And all short term investors are traders? There are some people who don't know how to trade but they are investing in bitcoin.

Yes, there are two categories of Bitcoin, long-term and short-term investment. And the main feature of these two investment methods is the amount of risk.

That is a weird way of categorizing matters. You don't take risk out by length of your investment, yet you can mitigate risk with position size.

Quote from: Ricardo11 on Today at 10:59:45 AM

Long-term investment: In the case of long-term investment, the amount of risk is always low, for example, if we study the history of Bitcoin, we will see that the price of Bitcoin has always increased a lot in the long term, but it tends to be very UP and DOWN in the short term. Therefore, this Long-term investment method is relatively low risk, so most investors give more priority to the long-term investment method. Especially long-term investment using the DCA method. As a result, an average price is obtained by avoiding short-term market volatility from which we can benefit more in the long term.

You seem to be talking about the asymmetric bet nature of bitcoin, since you don't lose risk merely because the time line is longer, but you could invest a small amount of money and then you don't necessarily perceive that the amount that you invested is materially affecting you, so in that case you invest such a small amount that you don't necessarily perceive it to be negatively impacting you, and then if the BTC price ends up going up over time, then you end up getting benefits from what had seemed to have had been relatively small amounts spread over long periods of time.

Time does not remove the risk, even though there is a concept of Lindy effect that applies to certain kinds of assets including technologies, which suggests that a longer that an asset/technology is in existence, the longer it is expected to stay in existence.. yet even that Lindy effect concept is not imunned to suffering some kind of a sudden loss of value based on some non-suspected development(s).

Quote from: Ricardo11 on Today at 10:59:45 AM

Short-term investment: Short-term Bitcoin investment does not mean trading.

We can agree to disagree. If you are talking about less than 4 years than I would consider that to be trading. If you are referring to 4-10 years then I would consider that short term investing, so long as you are basing your getting out of bitcoin based on age, health or some other kind of restricting timeline consideration that does not allow you to invest more than 10 years. For the most part, over 10 years would most likely be considered as long term investing.. though surely it could be problematic for anyone to be considered an investor if the are planning to sell everything and/or to buy back cheaper, so in that sense, trading versus investing is not just based on time, but based on how the investment is going to be handled once it starts to mature.. and so in that regards investments are not sold to buy back cheaper or even not usually all at once either.. even though surely there can be variance and even justifiable reasons to get out of investments that are not even necessarily time based but instead based on perceptions of changes in fundamentals of one investment versus another..

Quote from: Ricardo11 on Today at 10:59:45 AM

Some investors buy and sell at the right time in the hope that the price will increase in the short term, and to do this thing correctly, a lot of market research, skills, right strategy and right method must be adopted.

That sounds like trading to me.

Quote from: Ricardo11 on Today at 10:59:45 AM

In this case, if he makes a slight mistake in market research, everything can change, that is, if he makes an investment based on the wrong market research, then instead of increasing in value, the value may decrease.

That does not sound like investment, even though you are choosing to use the word investment to describe what you (or someone else) are doing.

Quote from: Ricardo11 on Today at 10:59:45 AM

Therefore, short-term investment is much riskier, but a short-term investor is not a trader.

We can agree to disagree regarding your framing of the matter and your ways of describing these matters.

Quote from: Ricardo11 on Today at 10:59:45 AM

Therefore, an investor can invest in both methods, but it depends on his own personal decision, that is, it depends on the risk-taking ability of the investor.

Still does not make sense, but if that kind of framing works for you, then so be it.

To me, we deal with risk in regards to position size rather than timeline, and also planning to play waves to get in and out of an assets sounds like trading rather than investing, and perhaps it does not matter about the timeline, even though presumptively less than 4 years would be trading just based on the timeline.. yet another aspect of investing is that there is not necessarily any incentive (or plan) to want to completely get out of it absent a change of the investment thesis.. so surely we might not be convicted about our investment into bitcoin in the beginning and it might take one or two cycles for us to develop a conviction to stay in it and to establish sustainable withdrawal strategies around it.. .. yet surely, new facts could end up contributing to our deciding to get out of the investment (even if we might have had investment inclinations until the strength of the investment thesis ended up changing and causing us to no longer believe in the asset as compared with other places that we might determine to put (or move or reallocate or change allocations of) our value.

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 06:25:20 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on Today at 10:41:41 AM

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From what you said, your disciples don't even know what is bitcoin investment and they only understand the parts you made mentioned of the "long term investment". They are not even real investors so they don't have much experience on bitcoin investment. Short term bitcoin investment is 5-10 years and if the investors can hodle his coins in this period, then he can withstand with long term investment because going into long term need more determination because it is a financial activity and within this period anything can happen. Either the person will die or sick so all those things will be put into consideration in the long term investment. Sir you are confusing your disciples by saying that 4-10 years investment is tagged as a trading. Trading has different timing but not 4 years. From my experience in cryptocurrency, I have not encountered 4 years trading timing. In trading there there are 1m, 15m, 4h, 1d, 1w, 1month and more.

We might be repeating ourselves too much in these kinds of semantics arguments, and I am not even proclaiming to be able to describe any of these kinds of trading versus matters with great precision, since there is going to be overlap in the practices, including that a person could come to bitcoin with a short term or long term time horizon, and he could plan to get in and out of a position, so then the getting in and out of a position would more likely fit into a trading category, especially if the intention is to buy back cheaper.

Investing could be long or short and with intentions to mostly be staying in bitcoin with a plan to convert from accumulation and then to maintenance and then to sustainable withdrawal on a fairly short timeline, so then I would consider those to be investment kinds of mindsets based on an intention to get into bitcoin and mostly to hang onto it, even though the employment and execution of sustainable withdrawal practices might start to come into play after a certain timeline and having had built up the size of the position (which would presumptively be enough or more than enough by the time any sustainable withdrawal strategy (price-based and/or time based) might start to be employed).

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 06:25:20 PM

What is bitcoin trading. It is the process of buying and selling of bitcoin so if you buy bitcoin today and sell it in 2090, it is also part of bitcoin trading and that is why new have different timeframe of trading.

It becomes meaningless when talking about such long timelines.. let's try to stay more realistic, since concededly, it becomes more difficult to label as trading the longer the timeline, even though surely when guys are playing with large portions of their portfolio at one time, then it can start to seem like trading rather than investing.

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 06:25:20 PM

What is bitcoin investment? It is the act of buying bitcoin and hodling it for profit purpose, so the profit can come at any time.

You seem to be stating the opposite on purpose.. which is not a very genuine way of attempt to engage in serious discussions. Investors do not tend to focus on profits, that is a trading kind of way of attempting to justify how to manage BTC positions.

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 06:25:20 PM

And not to dump it in the wallet for everlasting. You must sell it one day and there are different times for selling it and all depends on the profit you have at the moment of the bitcoin price.

That's trading not investing.

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 06:25:20 PM

So if I bought bitcoin of $30,000 today as an individual and within 4 years period and I got a profit of $500,000 and add it to.my capital it should be $530,000 and i should still keep it. That is greedy investor. And that is not a trade but short term investment base on the concept of investment.

You are providing confusing examples, but let me see if I can go with it. You want to suggest that your $30k investment today turned into $530k in 4 years, and so when you cash it all out, you are investing rather than trading? it sounds like trading to me, since you are getting in and out, and then when you sell, are you planning to keep some of that in to buy back or are you going out and buying other things? Does any of this matter? Are you trying to stay into bitcoin longer term or not? Are you becoming a no coiner when you cash out your $530k? Why do you want to cash out? Are you suggesting that BTC's investment thesis is weaker at that time? or are you suggesting that bitcoin is in a period of overexuberance and you are playing the wave to either buy back lower and/or to invest into other things and/or to do engage in some consumption?

What we call it might be based on what you want to do with it, yet it is not automatically justifiable to take the value out of bitcoin merely because you are booking $500k profits (or 17.7x returns).

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 06:25:20 PM

From the way I understand your comments, your investment on bitcoin is everlasting and forever which your disciples who don't know about investment also arguing for.

I am not saying that completely, even though you can figure out sustainable withdrawal strategies that are based on price and/or time, and you can figure out how you are to deal with your $530k in bitcoin value rather than selling all of it to do what? Sure maybe you could sell some of it for various purposes along the way, yet you may well not need to (or even get much value from selling all of it at one time), so your having that value should help to inform you in regards to what you want to do and how you want to deal with the situation of having had achieved a 17.7x price appreciation, and a value attainment that may or may not be sustainable in itself on the short-term...

Yet one of the dynamics that any of us bitcoiners should be considering is that we are in the midst of one of the greatest, if not the greatest transferences of wealth in history from no coiners to coiners, and do we want to be on the side of the coiners (who are receiving the wealth transfer) or do we want to be on the side of the low coiners/no coiners because we ended up selling too many coins too soon. Sure, you might believe that you are smarter than everyone else when you sell too much too soon.. and maybe you will even be correct for a while, yet it surely can be problematic if you are selling to buy back lower and you end up fucking up the size of your BTC stash because you did not hardly have enough in the first place and you would have had been better off to just keep stacking for another cycle before getting overly anxious about selling or trying to sell to buy back cheaper.. .. and sure in the end you can do whatever you like since you are going to be the one who suffers the consequences of whatever you choose to do.

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 06:25:20 PM

You are really confusing them about bitcoin investment.

I don't claim to know all of the answers, and I doubt that your description is more beneficial.. especially when you talk about being in bitcoin less than 3 years and then you are planning to sell at $100k and buy back at $30k and you think that should be considered investing (or short-term investing). You seem to be the one with confusing and seemingly convoluted ways of framing these kinds of trading versus investing ideas.

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 06:25:20 PM

Please also tell them the different types of bitcoin investment.

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Long term investing would be 10 years or longer.

meaning there is short term bitcoin investment below the 10 years which your disciples refuse to accept because of your orientations. They have to understand the meaning of bitcoin investment before they should argue so that they won't mislead others.

I already went over this, and guys are free to consider some of my ways of trying to discuss these trading versus investing matters or they can consider if there might be better ways to consider these matters. It is not always going to be clear because some folks might come into bitcoin with certain timelines in mind, but their ideas might change as they build their bitcoin portfolio, and they might convert from trader to investor or from investor to trader.. .and even their timelines might change or their ideas about the strength of bitcoin's investment thesis might change. It is best if they can figure out some of these parameters for themselves including that we are not always going to agree how to go about either building our BTC investment or circumstances that might motivate us to change our practices, including if we might have varying ideas about when to get out partially or in full, so each person has to also account for his own financial and psychological circumstances that might include considering if during his investment period (of 3 years or whatever) if he had been learning enough about bitcoin in order to decide to sell or if some other strategy might be better. We won't necessarily agree and surely some bitcoin accumulators are going to do better than others based on how they choose to accumulate bitcoin, and if they choose to tweak their strategies including if they might start to include selling into their way of wanting to accumulate bitcoin, if that is where they consider themselves to be, and surely there can be differences of opinions about whether to sell all BTC or some of the BTC and there will be winners and losers in regards to BTC management (and maintenance) choices that guys choose to employ in their bitcoin journey.

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 06:25:20 PM

You can't impose your bitcoin investment plan on others and it is not good to tell people that it is only long term investment is the legit one and anyone who is short term investment is nonsense.

I can say what I think is better, yet sure, you are correct that each person has to figure out for himself in terms of his various individual factors.

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 06:25:20 PM

They have to read and understand what an investment and differentiate investment from trading. I ahe dropped some of timeframes of trading. Trading is different from investment. I trade once a while but my investment is continues and whenever I like to sell, some can sell them and take my profits because that is the main purpose of investment and I am not tired to the forever investment which I believe your disciples are not even doing.

We cannot really know exactly what guys are doing, even though some will try to describe what they are doing, and surely some guys will be doing things differently than what they say, and surely there are always going to be instances of guys making mistakes and they may or may not disclose their mistakes. Sometimes I talk about some of my mistakes, and sometimes I don't say everything that I do because some of what I do might not be exactly relevant to the conversation, yet also sometimes there might be personal reasons to do certain things and maybe even while some things are done on the fly, they might be confusing to describe until after some time has passed by...so sometimes I might not say what I am done or what I did until several months later, when it seems to be relevant to some discussion point...

Sometimes what I did might be a mistake or it might be a brilliant move or it might be something that I learn from or it might be something that ends up showing a strength or weakness that I might have. Sometimes, there might be reasons to not say anything based on OPsec considerations, so sometimes it might take some time to figure out how to describe something that happened or how the BTC portfolio was handled under certain conditions without necessarily giving away too many OPSec kinds of information pieces.

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 06:25:20 PM

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I doubt that I have ever (especially recently) referred to short-term investing as less than 4 years...

Yes sir, and that is why people like DubemIfedigbo001, Sim_card and Ruttoshi and others are only repeating long term investment and they are single issue commenters in the thread.

Please break things down for them because they are already mislead...

I think that I said enough already, and those guys have their own ideas, and sure sometimes we agree on the way that these ideas are framed and sometimes we don't, and I even doubt that they are just following what I say, since frequently, they will come up with their own ways of saying things, which I might or might not agree with any of them. It is not like we have some kind of consensus on all of these matters, even if there seems to be agreement about some of the better practices, and any one of us might end up saying something that is not very correct or we say it in a way that is misleading, so surely there can be learning from each other, yet at the same time, it can be problematic for anyone to merely agree based on another member (such as me) saying it, since they have to figure out their own ways of saying it and perhaps figuring out for themselves if the practice is good or not, and if it fits with their circumstances, since if they end up fucking up, they are not going to be saved merely because they thought that they were following best practices, and it ends up being wrong. Each of us is responsible for ourselves, and if we listen or blindly follow someone on the interwebs, then we only have ourselves to blame. .whether we are considering cashflow management practices, BTC position size and/or when and how or if to diversify into other assets, including how to think about (and describe) shitcoins and/or trading versus investment.

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 08:10:04 PM

Quote from: Ruttoshi on Today at 07:50:57 PM

[edited out]

Please can you define what trading a.d investment for clear discussion?

We might be getting too much into semantical arguments and just repeating ourselves without really getting anywhere.

Quote from: Agbe on Today at 08:10:04 PM

Look at what he said... I don't argue blind argument with people like this. J.J comments is very much different from yours.

Quote from: JayJuanGee on Today at 10:41:41 AM

[edited out]

My post can speak for itself to the extent that whatever I said matters in regards to any of this anyhow, and I feel that I am repeating myself and the lines of what is trading versus investing are not going to be exact anyhow... even though surely guys can employ practices that they are not sure of whether they are investing versus if they are trading, and maybe it does not matter so much since they might be trying to figure out where they are at and how they are going to treat their BTC holdings, which may be more important to figure out how they are going to treat it rather than arguing about what to call it... even though surely when we are using terms in ways that are understandable to others, then we can help to be more clear about various trade-offs that might play out if we decide to continue to accumulate through buying only techniques or if we might start to believe that we have to sell some BTC in order to try to buy back cheaper. There are truly trade offs and guys have to figure out for themselves if they might want to change what they are doing and/or if they think that either selling or perhaps just refusing to buy and waiting for a dip is a good idea or not. They are not easy answers and surely guys can get lured into trading rather than investing or think that they are doing the better thing, but then later on (perhaps years later) realize that they made a lot of rookie mistakes that they could have had avoided if they had figured out ways to manage their own cashflows and/or their ways of BTC accumulation, and even bitcoin's price history might not tell us that we are doing the right thing since it is possible that bitcoin will never reach $100k and it will go to zero from here.. Sure it is not a very likely scenario, yet each of us is responsible to figure out our own BTC position size, our level of aggressiveness in BTC accumulation, and whether we believe selling BTC is a reasonable way to manage our BTC holdings, including considering whether selling it a good idea when we might have had assessed ourselves to be in our early to mid to late accumulation stages, and the strategies might be different based on where we assess ourselves to be..and if we are selling to buy back cheaper versus if we are selling to merely provide downside insurance versus if we might be selling to reallocate into other assets (with a presumption that we have already overaccumulated in BTC, which also is not a clear concept to realize what might constitute an overaccumulation status).