Quote from: ZeroVinsonN on April 08, 2025, 07:02:06 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on April 08, 2025, 02:50:43 AM

Quote from: ZeroVinsonN on April 07, 2025, 09:56:17 AM

Quote from: BitBakerr1 on April 07, 2025, 08:11:22 AM

[edited out]

I don't think a person will ever have accumulated enough bitcoin no matter how much they have, people just need to keeping accumulating and over time they can sell certain percentages depending on their investment timeframe as long as they don't sell everything, bitcoin is still growing and it still has more ATH to achieve along the way.

I think that you are failing/refusing to really think through the matter, if you think that a person might not be able to get to a point of accumulating enough or more than enough bitcoin.

I will give you an example of a person who might have had been in early 30s 9 years ago, and then maybe he had an income of around $30k per year. and so maybe when he first got into bitcoin, in 2016, he might have lump sum bought around $20k worth of bitcoin (let's say averaging around $500 per bitcoin.. So he bought 40 BTC.

He then decided to invest 30% of his income into bitcoin, so he invested right around $10k per year into bitcoin at about $200 per week. So over the last 9 years, he invested an additional $94k into bitcoin and he accumulated nearly an additional 24 bitcoin.

So right now he continues to have an income of about $35k per year, and sure maybe his income went up to $50k.. no problem.. and he is now in his early 40s and he has 64 bitcoin. He would like to double or triple his income, and I think that he has enough bitcoin and/or he has more than enough bitcoin for his stated goals.

I personally calculate that with 64 bitcoin, he could sustainably withdraw right around $290k per year, and so he has way more than enough bitcoin for his own particular needs and his current lifestyle, even if we might consider that his current income is $50k and he would like to double or triple his current income by currently living off his bitcoin.

Maybe you can proclaim that the guy does not have enough bitcoin, yet based on his already existing standard of living, he is able to increase his standard of living by 5x to 6x of his current standard of living based on the quantity of bitcoin that he has already accumulated over 9 years, which seems quite amazing to me, and if the guys chooses to not to completely max out his bitcoin withdrawal rate, it is likely that every year he can continue to increase his standard of living and without working and just by living within his means, his bitcoin is likely to continue to grow faster than the rate that he would be withdrawing from it, especially, if he might start out by merely withdrawing somewhere in the ball park of his current income (while quitting his job or perhaps he could choose to double or triple his income, which would still be way below the maximum withdrawal rate that he could accomplish in the event that he wanted to start withdrawing more.

I think that a person who wants to live off of $80k per year from his bitcoin, he would currently need to have 17.56 bitcoin, and surely if he has more than that quantity of bitcoin, then he has more than enough, and if a guy only has around half of the 17.56 bitcoin (such as 9-ish bitcoin), then he could merely HODL for 3-ish years and reach a similar level of sufficiency in regards to his bitcoin stash being able to sustainably support a $80k per year income.

Okay so basically, depending on the individual who is investing in bitcoin, sufficiency can be attaine, if he is currently earning around 35k-50k annually and this can also be how much he spends to meet his needs and wants, he could decide increase his spendings to 80k per year which would require about 17.56 BTC to achieve and he has 64 BTC which is obviously bigger than 17.56,so he could stop accumulating and still live off his bitcoin stash and his job (if he still chooses to keep his job) and still have enough to support his lifestyle.

I am rebutting your earlier statement, in which you said that a person can never have enough BTC, so I am showing you an example of something that could have had been possible to achieve in the past 9 years.

Even though history does not guarantee future results, I am showing you an example of someone who would have had more than sufficiently accumulated more than enough bitcoin based on his having had accumulated bitcoin, with a $20k front loaded investment (9 years ago), and then investing around 30% of his income, It actually possible that I could have used half those numbers, and still achieved more than enough bitcoin with the guy having had accumulated 32 bitcoin rather than 64 bitcoin, yet I wanted to show a greater extreme of what would have had been possible in the last 9 years... and there are way more lesser extreme exampes that still could have had resulted in enough or more than enough BTC accumulated.

Quote from: ZeroVinsonN on April 08, 2025, 07:02:06 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on April 08, 2025, 02:50:43 AM

Quote from: ZeroVinsonN on April 07, 2025, 09:56:17 AM

Let's say you have accumulated a lot of bitcoin and you are holding off on accumulating for a while, this would be the perfect time to start accumulating again to increase your stash and boost your holdings before the price goes back up again, and for a newbie, there is no time like the present, keep growing your portfolio and as long as you can afford it, lump buying would really favour a person right now, if you can't afford it, just stick to DCA and grow your bitcoin with your discretionary funds.

The building up of a bitcoin investment to get to a point of being enough or more than enough likely takes time and it is not guaranteed to be successful, even though I think that you are correct to suggest that just ongoing investing into bitcoin is likely going to help to make progress in the direction of getting enough and/or more than enough bitcoin.

I was just saying that even though has alot of bitcoin in stash, deciding to keep accumulating is more likely than not,

Not everyone thinks like you, and not everyone wants to keep working all of their lives. Sure, in my example the guy is still fairly young since he is still ONLY in his early 40s, so surely he could choose to continue to work, but he does not have to... so I doubt that merely because you believe that he is going to keep accumulating or keep working, that does not mean he is going to do that.

Quote from: ZeroVinsonN on April 08, 2025, 07:02:06 AM

though aggressiveness might be on the downside, the person could even decide to only buy during DIP and not on a weekly or monthly basis as when he probably started investing while also living off a set percentage annually depending on his choices.

The example that I gave was so extreme that the guy is likely somewhere in the ballpark of more than 4x what he needs (wants), so he does not need to accumulate more. From what he could earn from BTC living off his BTC, he also is in the ballpark of close to 10x his current standard of living. I don't see why he would feel any need to accumulate more, even though sure there are a variety of directions that he could take that involves some ways that the value of his BTC stash continues to grow, so if he is taking anything less than 10% per year of the 200-WMA dollar value, then the dollar value of his bitcoin holdings (especially at the level of the 200-WMA) is quite likekly going to grow faster than he is withdrawing it.. and yeah, sure , he can monitor his withdrawal rate to make sure that he does not over withdraw, but from my perspective he still seems to have a whole hell-of-a-lot of cushion so he should not necessarily be motivated into thinking that he needs more bitcoin to sustain many multiples of his current standard of living.

Quote from: BitBakerr1 on April 08, 2025, 07:36:07 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on April 08, 2025, 02:50:43 AM

Quote from: ZeroVinsonN on April 07, 2025, 09:56:17 AM

Quote from: BitBakerr1 on April 07, 2025, 08:11:22 AM

[edited out]

I don't think a person will ever have accumulated enough bitcoin no matter how much they have, people just need to keeping accumulating and over time they can sell certain percentages depending on their investment timeframe as long as they don't sell everything, bitcoin is still growing and it still has more ATH to achieve along the way.

I think that you are failing/refusing to really think through the matter, if you think that a person might not be able to get to a point of accumulating enough or more than enough bitcoin.

I will give you an example of a person who might have had been in early 30s 9 years ago, and then maybe he had an income of around $30k per year. and so maybe when he first got into bitcoin, in 2016, he might have lump sum bought around $20k worth of bitcoin (let's say averaging around $500 per bitcoin.. So he bought 40 BTC.

He then decided to invest 30% of his income into bitcoin, so he invested right around $10k per year into bitcoin at about $200 per week. So over the last 9 years, he invested an additional $94k into bitcoin and he accumulated nearly an additional 24 bitcoin.

So right now he continues to have an income of about $35k per year, and sure maybe his income went up to $50k.. no problem.. and he is now in his early 40s and he has 64 bitcoin. He would like to double or triple his income, and I think that he has enough bitcoin and/or he has more than enough bitcoin for his stated goals.

I personally calculate that with 64 bitcoin, he could sustainably withdraw right around $290k per year, and so he has way more than enough bitcoin for his own particular needs and his current lifestyle, even if we might consider that his current income is $50k and he would like to double or triple his current income by currently living off his bitcoin.

Maybe you can proclaim that the guy does not have enough bitcoin, yet based on his already existing standard of living, he is able to increase his standard of living by 5x to 6x of his current standard of living based on the quantity of bitcoin that he has already accumulated over 9 years, which seems quite amazing to me, and if the guys chooses to not to completely max out his bitcoin withdrawal rate, it is likely that every year he can continue to increase his standard of living and without working and just by living within his means, his bitcoin is likely to continue to grow faster than the rate that he would be withdrawing from it, especially, if he might start out by merely withdrawing somewhere in the ball park of his current income (while quitting his job or perhaps he could choose to double or triple his income, which would still be way below the maximum withdrawal rate that he could accomplish in the event that he wanted to start withdrawing more.

I think that a person who wants to live off of $80k per year from his bitcoin, he would currently need to have 17.56 bitcoin, and surely if he has more than that quantity of bitcoin, then he has more than enough, and if a guy only has around half of the 17.56 bitcoin (such as 9-ish bitcoin), then he could merely HODL for 3-ish years and reach a similar level of sufficiency in regards to his bitcoin stash being able to sustainably support a $80k per year income.

From your explanation you are talking about reaching a fuck you stage and from what I have seen now and thought about after reading your writing it is actually possible for someone to accumulate enough Bitcoin I totally agree on that, those who have reached a fuck you stage can actually stop working and life by there already Accumulated Bitcoin and that's because they have accumulated enough Bitcoin that can take care of them however I will still advise that if someone has reached the stage and there's a great dip it will be better to add more to your already Accumulated Bitcoin because at that state of dip you can't sell so is better to buy however it won't be possible for those who has stopped working or retired for this set of people all they can do is to keep holding and sell when they wish to because is now there means of survival.

In the example that I gave, the guy has way more than enough, and sure he can choose to completely quit his job or sure he might have other sources, of income, yet even if he does not have any additional income sources, he still has way more than enough bitcoin that he can figure out however he likes to manage the selling of his bitcoin holdings and/or the extent t which he might want to buy bitcoin on dips or not, if he also might figure out ways to start to sell bitcoin within his own scheduling and parameters.

In my sustainable withdrawal thread, I talk about various ways to engage in sustainable withdrawal that can be price based and/or time based, so there can be tools to even overly sell BTC at certain points in time to just keep extra cash on hand, whether its kept in regular cash or if the guy might choose to put his extra withdrawal in other kinds of assets. It surely is nice to have options, yet there can be quite a bit of variability that makes it difficult to describe withdrawal options that are overly restrictive in terms of various feasible options that guys could end up exercising.

Quote from: BitBakerr1 on April 08, 2025, 07:36:07 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on April 08, 2025, 02:50:43 AM

Quote from: ZeroVinsonN on April 07, 2025, 09:56:17 AM

Let's say you have accumulated a lot of bitcoin and you are holding off on accumulating for a while, this would be the perfect time to start accumulating again to increase your stash and boost your holdings before the price goes back up again, and for a newbie, there is no time like the present, keep growing your portfolio and as long as you can afford it, lump buying would really favour a person right now, if you can't afford it, just stick to DCA and grow your bitcoin with your discretionary funds.

The building up of a bitcoin investment to get to a point of being enough or more than enough likely takes time and it is not guaranteed to be successful, even though I think that you are correct to suggest that just ongoing investing into bitcoin is likely going to help to make progress in the direction of getting enough and/or more than enough bitcoin.

Yeah success in your Bitcoin investment is not 100 percent sure because Bitcoin is volatile in nature but if you become consistent and patient by holding for long term then your chances of becoming successful is actually bigger than you not succeeding, one of the things that makes your Bitcoin investment unstoppable even with the volatile nature of Bitcoin is holding for long term.

Each of us is in a position to do whatever we like when it comes to managing our bitcoin holdings and if we might consider it prudent to change the management of our bitcoin, even getting out of bitcoin, if we begin to believe that our reasons for investing into bitcoin are no longer as strong as they previously had been.

I personally believe that bitcoin is likely going to continue to be a life time investment rather than an investment that one gets in and out of, so sure some guys might end up selling too much too soon or become disenchanted about bitcoin, and they are free to make those kinds of choices, even if they might have had intended to invest into bitcoin for longer periods of time, such as 10 years or longer, they might end up choosing to cut their investment timeline short.

Quote from: betswift on April 08, 2025, 07:38:39 AM

Quote from: philipma1957 on April 08, 2025, 03:23:56 AM

Quote from: BitBakerr1 on April 07, 2025, 09:49:53 PM

Quote from: OgNasty on April 07, 2025, 08:54:06 PM

Interesting that Michael Saylor is telling people to sell their kidney to buy Bitcoin while at the same time is releasing statements saying that he may have to sell Bitcoin below their cost basis to fulfill financial obligations. It is a bit sad what Microstrategy has done to Bitcoin. Once Saylor stops pushing the price up he’s going to find out in a major way what the community really thinks of him.

Michael Saylor is one of the people that has pushed Bitcoin up and has also motivated a lot of people to go into Bitcoin investment, when ever he purchases Bitcoin and post it on his social media account it gives newbies this believe that truly Bitcoin is a great asset and should be taken seriously, Michael Saylors has made a lot of impact to the growth of Bitcoin and that can't be forgotten in a hurry, I know some people who are very determine and dedicated to their Bitcoin investment right now because of Michael Saylor regular buying of Bitcoin, someone said no one will spend this much on asset that is not valuable this thought alone on people's mind is a great push for Bitcoin.
What ever Michael Saylor decides to do now is his choice and we will still not forget his impact on Bitcoin.

It would be funny to see the worlds largest btc whale having to sell a lot of coins

He would still reaccumulate everything he would sell (if needed at all).
Wink

Surely Saylor had been changing his tune in recent times, and suggesting that he might have to sell in order to service some of the new kinds of financial instruments that the company had chosen to issue. There can be some folks who lose their confidence in Saylor/MSTR based on their newly chosen strategies.

Even though Saylor/MSTR is the largest individual/ public company holder of bitcoin, he still is not bitcoin, and bitcoin is going to keep going whether Saylor/MSTR is in bitcoin or not. We cannot choose who buys bitcoin or what they do with it once they have it, including acknowledging that bitcoin is for friends and for enemies., so surely there could be bitcoin manipulation attempts that might happen from time to time.

Quote from: Tungbulu on April 08, 2025, 09:26:10 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on April 08, 2025, 02:50:43 AM

[edited out]

I must confess that you and your strategies are proof that with consistency, patience and also a solid plan, investing in Bitcoin can actually pay off. Sometimes when I bump into your theories, I can’t but to wish I had knew and had access to these theories, strategies and knowledge several years back, I bet I would’ve been more than proud of my bitcoin investment today.

I think that if we have experience investing into bitcoin, then it becomes more clear how to valuate our bitcoin, and surely traditional investment assets allow you to withdraw at about 4% per year, yet even with traditional assets, any of us can get into trouble if our investment is not performing at least as good as our withdrawal rate, which is part of the reason that I choose to valuate the bitcoin stash with the 200-WMA, which I think will be much more solid of a basis to be able to see if either downward adjustments or upward adjustments might be made.

If any of us puts these kinds of withdrawal systems into practice, then it is likely that we would need to have a little bit of a cushion in our quantity of BTC or perhaps even in the way that we put our system into practice.. to make sure that we are not depleting our stash at a rate that is higher than it is appreciating in value, another reason to evaluate basd on the dollar value of the 200-WMA..