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Should Bitcoin form a freedom fighters army? Like the founders of America, we need an army.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x3HNGTM23L4/Tcjll0QzAII/AAAAAAAAA3Y/6sq9zYXJkH8/s1600/american%2Bwars.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x3HNGTM23L4/Tcjll0QzAII/AAAAAAAAA3Y/6sq9zYXJkH8/s1600/american%2Bwars.jpg
Dude, you're retarded.
Ya but it's a bad sign overall IMO...
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.
The one and only problem that needs to be solved for distributed exchanges to work is how to move the fiat. If you're not focusing on the problem of moving fiat you are wasting your time, because that's literally the only thing that matters. When fiat is no longer used then we'll have no need for exchanges.
Amen to that!
Thank you.
I'm glad to finally see some sanity in these threads. This a waste of time, it's currently not possible. People proposing a 'voucher' system are really proposing another digital currency which, if implemented, would be better than bitcoin.
Moving fiat is the ONLY problem that matters...and it's an impossible problem atm. So let these threads die with dignity.
Anyone interested at taking a shot of a summary and recap of what we currently know about P2P exchanges?
Summary: Retarded idea. There is currently no way to implement a p2p exchange. The problem is there is no way to move fiat.
Maybe a few other sites (each site is of course centralised but as a whole you have many points of failure) which offer "trading tokens" or something in exchange for real money.
A token purchased at one of these sites should be fully redeemable at any other site, so if any of them decide to shut up shop at any point there are more you can use.
Then you deposit this token at the P2P exchange and it acts like fiat to buy/sell btc with.
How would you secure this, make sure the tokens are valid, can't just be made up, sold/used twice, do money laundering checks etc etc? Hell if I know, but this is the sort of thing I'd like to see. Separate fiat from the BTC exchange, make it someone elses problem.
A token purchased at one of these sites should be fully redeemable at any other site, so if any of them decide to shut up shop at any point there are more you can use.
Then you deposit this token at the P2P exchange and it acts like fiat to buy/sell btc with.
How would you secure this, make sure the tokens are valid, can't just be made up, sold/used twice, do money laundering checks etc etc? Hell if I know, but this is the sort of thing I'd like to see. Separate fiat from the BTC exchange, make it someone elses problem.
But then the "trading tokens" are just like another form of bitcoin, right?. I still don't understand how this is possible unless it interacts with the banking system, which is obviously a major problem. I think BTC ATMs are the closest we can get to this. Put physical cash in a machine to get BTC, get physical cash out in exchange for BTC. The decentralized aspect would have to come from the market not being dominated by any big players which also seems unlikely in the long run. But as long as the fees are low, who cares?
Quote
The correct interpretation of that passage should be
Oh yeah, let's CHANGE the meaning of what is written there.And, eventually, we will discover that the crusades were righteous
Quote
at that time the women were not educated so Paul was correct in saying that women should not be permitted to speak or teach
Mmmhh 
Paul was correct in saying women should not be permitted to speak or teach at that time (until they were educated, or society allowed for them to be educated)
Read it in Greek. That was the original author's intent. What the English version of our Bible says is not always exactly correct. The English translators are the ones that CHANGE the meaning. Hence why it is important for some of us to take off our "English lenses" we see the world with.
Believing in god is the same as believing in the tooth fairy. It's a form of magical thinking.
That being said I think everyone should give BTC instead of fiat to their kids when perpetuating such delusional notions. I can make a small exception for the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus. But only when they are REALLY young, lest they be doomed to a life of wildly implausible core beliefs that will taint their reasoning in all other aspects of thought.
I'm more concerned with the religion OF bitcoin. Their are FAR too many people who have near apocalyptic visions of how BTC will transform the world and bring torment an damnation upon governments, banks, Keynesians and everyone who has ever mocked them. While the BTCers will be enraptured in wealth and splendor and rule the world at the right-hand of Satoshi. Sound familiar???
This^^^
This scene embodies at least half of bitcointalk's non technical/helpful threads (Mike Leigh's 'Naked' 1993 SFW): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N90sl94g7PE&t=2m18s
Agree.
I've noticed that naivete is rampant 'round these parts.
Empires do not collapse in the center. They crumble around the edges.
It is amazing to me how many people mock this topic. This is very serious. Maybe it's not important to you but we're talking about religion here. People really take this shit seriously. THEY WILL KILL FOR THEIR BELIEFS. We worry about how the central banks might react and how they might put an end to Bitcoin. We really need to consider how the religious will act. They are far more scary to me than the government or the Fed. There are zealots out there, representing no specific religion, who would not think twice to detonate a nuclear bomb and wipe out an entire metropolitan city to make their point.
An answer to the Revelations issue would not be a bad thing for the Bitcoin community to start seriously working out now. We have Bitcoin representatives working with government regulatory agencies now. Is anyone talking to the religious leaders? Can we get a papal blessing on Bitcoin?
An answer to the Revelations issue would not be a bad thing for the Bitcoin community to start seriously working out now. We have Bitcoin representatives working with government regulatory agencies now. Is anyone talking to the religious leaders? Can we get a papal blessing on Bitcoin?
My suggestion would be to get over your fear. I don't think it's worth the effort to reach out to most religious leaders...waste of time. Render unto Caesar and so on. Homeland security has been working with religious leaders for years, they beat you to the punch.
I don't think we can ever get a Papal or a Paypal blessing. They are both equally unlikely.
Bitcoin is the Digital Jesus (or Djesus), and Djesus is risen!
All hail our coin and savior.
Djesus changed bits into value, can easily feed a village with fish, and in the sea of global commerce walked on water.
Also, like Django, Djesus has a vendetta against the owners of the system.
All hail our coin and savior.
Djesus changed bits into value, can easily feed a village with fish, and in the sea of global commerce walked on water.
Also, like Django, Djesus has a vendetta against the owners of the system.
Re: The Warrant against Dwolla and Bitcoin: The Beginning of the End of Bitcoin
But, I am not sure whether to be angry with MtGox for not making sure their operation was completely legal and could withstand legal attacks, or with the DHS for being overzealous in protecting Americans from imagined menaces.
I'm certainly more angry at Mtgox. Looking at how the CEO filled out those wells fargo documents, he just flat out lied on them. Period.
It seems like every week or month it becomes more and more obvious that the guy running Mt. Gox simply has little to no experience in running a company like this and really has no idea what he's doing. It's been problem after problem and mistake after mistake.
I look at this is a positive thing in the long run. Yes in the short run it could cause a lot of problems for the bitcoin community. But in the long run things like this are needed so other people have a clear understand how to follow the laws and operate a bitcoin exchange.
He did not lie, he told the truth. The entity in question did nothing more than fwd payments.
Take this example. Company A owns companies B and C. Company B is an auto dealership. Company C is a pizza shop. At the end of every month, B and C send all income above expenses to A, which then distributes the profits to the shareholders. If someone gets horribly sick from rotten sausage on a pizza and sues C and wins, A and B are not responsible. You can't sue A and expect to win.
That's what's going on here, the court is accepting that the US based company is the same at MTGox, which it's not. Different entity which does not trade bitcoin at all. So it's BS.
"You can beat the wrap but you can't beat the ride"
It could take years to work out and that's probably the point. Delay and disrupt.
This is bogus. Mutum Silligum does not transfer money, Dowalla does. Mutum is a vendor, they are only transferring the money to the parent company.
This would be the same as busting a Google subsidiary in Germany for not registering as a "Money transmitting business" because they sent profit back to the U.S. parent company.
The agent went Full Retard. Either that or it's a real attack.
This would be the same as busting a Google subsidiary in Germany for not registering as a "Money transmitting business" because they sent profit back to the U.S. parent company.
The agent went Full Retard. Either that or it's a real attack.
Seriously. Don't trust the exchanges, don't trust online wallet services, don't trust your anti-virus software, and don't trust anybody online.
If you absolutely must trust someone with your bitcoins, for the love, choose carefully!
Insurance? Impossible, you say. Not so!
When I needed people to trust me to hold bitcoins for a contest, I deposited 50 bitcoins as a bond with a well-respected forum member, so that even if I did something stupid and lost people's money, they would still be reimbursed. You can read about it here: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=10008.0
Consider carefully who you will trust. With bitcoins, elaborate scams may be profitable. For instance, someone may develop trust for their user name over many months with small transactions on this forum, then take advantage of that trust to make off with a lot of money. Such a scam would only be worth doing on this forum. No other forum in the world would be worth the effort.
If you want someone to hold your bitcoins for you, there are NO online services that have the transparency and security to make me comfortable using them for storing bitcoins for more than a short time in small amounts. The only way to do it is like I did - choose someone whom you believe to be trustworthy, and approach them. If they approach you, or in any way say or insinuate that they are a trustworthy person to hold your coins, STAY AWAY.
If you are thinking that I might not be trustworthy, since I am writing this post about the issue, you are approaching the appropriate level of paranoia.
If you want to store your bitcoins with maximum security, there are lots of resources about how to do it, such as this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_your_wallet
Here's my summary:
1. Put all your coins in a new wallet that has never connected to the network
2. Encrypt that wallet with the maximum security you can find, using the most secure password you can keep track of
3. Delete the plaintext wallet, and distribute the encrypted wallet to every piece of physical media you own, store it online, and send it to several people you trust
Don't think you can generate and remember a secure enough password? Create a super-long password, and store clues to help you remember it. For instance, your password clue file might say:
My standard password + My throwaway password (backwards, all caps) + &#$%@ + First two sentences of first paragraph of page 19 of my favorite book (include all capitalization and punctuation) + My wife's mother's middle name + My son's favorite superhero + My favorite number times 8734 + food my wife hates (backwards, all caps) + 9-digit number stored with my paper will + 10-character password stored in my safety deposit box + . . . .
You can go on in this way to create as long a password as you want. Store this password clue file with your encrypted wallet, and optionally encrypt both with a simple standard password to keep out snoopers.
In this way, not only can you recover your coins from your "savings account" at a later date, if you get hit by a chicken truck tomorrow and die, your loved ones can probably piece together your password and recover the coins too (better make sure you trust them, and that between them they have or can get the answers to those clues).
I recommend that you practice your wallet encryption and recovery a few times with a small number of coins, until you are very comfortable with the process before you try it with the bulk of your savings.
And remember, this is how most bitcoins services get started:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lgm4poF3JWE/TgsHwby-BlI/AAAAAAAADwQ/twan94HT6p4/020.jpg
Comic from: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=13903.0
If you absolutely must trust someone with your bitcoins, for the love, choose carefully!
- Do you know their full name?
- Do you know where they are located?
- Have they demonstrated trustworthiness in the past?
- Are they asking you to trust them? (red flag)
- Do they have insurance?
Insurance? Impossible, you say. Not so!
When I needed people to trust me to hold bitcoins for a contest, I deposited 50 bitcoins as a bond with a well-respected forum member, so that even if I did something stupid and lost people's money, they would still be reimbursed. You can read about it here: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=10008.0
Consider carefully who you will trust. With bitcoins, elaborate scams may be profitable. For instance, someone may develop trust for their user name over many months with small transactions on this forum, then take advantage of that trust to make off with a lot of money. Such a scam would only be worth doing on this forum. No other forum in the world would be worth the effort.
If you want someone to hold your bitcoins for you, there are NO online services that have the transparency and security to make me comfortable using them for storing bitcoins for more than a short time in small amounts. The only way to do it is like I did - choose someone whom you believe to be trustworthy, and approach them. If they approach you, or in any way say or insinuate that they are a trustworthy person to hold your coins, STAY AWAY.
If you are thinking that I might not be trustworthy, since I am writing this post about the issue, you are approaching the appropriate level of paranoia.
If you want to store your bitcoins with maximum security, there are lots of resources about how to do it, such as this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_your_wallet
Here's my summary:
1. Put all your coins in a new wallet that has never connected to the network
2. Encrypt that wallet with the maximum security you can find, using the most secure password you can keep track of
3. Delete the plaintext wallet, and distribute the encrypted wallet to every piece of physical media you own, store it online, and send it to several people you trust
Don't think you can generate and remember a secure enough password? Create a super-long password, and store clues to help you remember it. For instance, your password clue file might say:
My standard password + My throwaway password (backwards, all caps) + &#$%@ + First two sentences of first paragraph of page 19 of my favorite book (include all capitalization and punctuation) + My wife's mother's middle name + My son's favorite superhero + My favorite number times 8734 + food my wife hates (backwards, all caps) + 9-digit number stored with my paper will + 10-character password stored in my safety deposit box + . . . .
You can go on in this way to create as long a password as you want. Store this password clue file with your encrypted wallet, and optionally encrypt both with a simple standard password to keep out snoopers.
In this way, not only can you recover your coins from your "savings account" at a later date, if you get hit by a chicken truck tomorrow and die, your loved ones can probably piece together your password and recover the coins too (better make sure you trust them, and that between them they have or can get the answers to those clues).
I recommend that you practice your wallet encryption and recovery a few times with a small number of coins, until you are very comfortable with the process before you try it with the bulk of your savings.
And remember, this is how most bitcoins services get started:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lgm4poF3JWE/TgsHwby-BlI/AAAAAAAADwQ/twan94HT6p4/020.jpg
Comic from: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=13903.0
I just don't put real money on it, my only spend was eletricity
Well if you're paying for the electricity then you're still spending money. But if it makes you feel better than more power to you.
I'm looking into how to do a paper wallet for this reason. There is no safer place than offline. Print and hide in a corner of a filing cabinet or something.
Also for doing transactions a good idea might be to setup OpenBSD virtual machine. (FreeBSD also good, and Linux better than nothing). Or better yet a physical OpenBSD machine used only for online banking and BTC transactions. (OpenBSD is widely regarded as the worlds most secure operating system)
I also run a custom pfsense router because so many commercial routers have outrageous security vulnerabilities. Windows 8 introduced 'refresh' which allows you to reset your operating system to a clean install which makes it much easier to revert to a known good state with all the stealth malware out there.
It really is dangerous. This is the golden age of hacking. In addition to all the criminal groups and hacker/hacktivists out there, around the world there are probably 200+ government intelligence agencies, 150 military organizations, hundreds of national policing organizations, and perhaps thousands of state and local level law enforcement organizations who are all actively developing and deploying malware and would love to add your network to their botnet. Everyone wants cyber warfare capabilities and everyone wants the ability to spy on as many people as possible.
It's hard to stay safe. At a bare minimum everyone here should be running their web browser inside a linux virtual machine. So if you are hit with an attack then:
1. They have to have a payload capable of taking root on linux
2. They have to have a way to break out of your virtual machine
Much more secure.
Stay safe people.
Also for doing transactions a good idea might be to setup OpenBSD virtual machine. (FreeBSD also good, and Linux better than nothing). Or better yet a physical OpenBSD machine used only for online banking and BTC transactions. (OpenBSD is widely regarded as the worlds most secure operating system)
I also run a custom pfsense router because so many commercial routers have outrageous security vulnerabilities. Windows 8 introduced 'refresh' which allows you to reset your operating system to a clean install which makes it much easier to revert to a known good state with all the stealth malware out there.
It really is dangerous. This is the golden age of hacking. In addition to all the criminal groups and hacker/hacktivists out there, around the world there are probably 200+ government intelligence agencies, 150 military organizations, hundreds of national policing organizations, and perhaps thousands of state and local level law enforcement organizations who are all actively developing and deploying malware and would love to add your network to their botnet. Everyone wants cyber warfare capabilities and everyone wants the ability to spy on as many people as possible.
It's hard to stay safe. At a bare minimum everyone here should be running their web browser inside a linux virtual machine. So if you are hit with an attack then:
1. They have to have a payload capable of taking root on linux
2. They have to have a way to break out of your virtual machine
Much more secure.
Stay safe people.
I've seen many posts that are attempting to value bitcoin relative to global GDP. I don't think this is correct way to look at the price of a bitcoin, but rather it's more correct to look at it's value relative to cash. I chose to use M3 because I think it's a good representation of the true money supply (even though it's not really officially tracked at the moment, and is much larger than the actual paper money supply). I had to estimate global M3. I think 40 Trillion is a reasonable guesstimate.
If BTC gains a 1% share of the value of global M3 in the short term, my target is $33,333/BTC. This estimate is predicated on the value going to 1% soon, as down the road the additional coins would obviously affect this value.
Breakdown as follows:
$40 Trillion estimated global M3
1% of 40 T == $400 billion
Nice round number of 12 million bitcoins
12 million BTC divided by $400 B:
$33,333/BTC @ 1% of global M3
$166,666/BTC @ 5% of global M3
If BTC gains a 1% share of the value of global M3 in the short term, my target is $33,333/BTC. This estimate is predicated on the value going to 1% soon, as down the road the additional coins would obviously affect this value.
Breakdown as follows:
$40 Trillion estimated global M3
1% of 40 T == $400 billion
Nice round number of 12 million bitcoins
12 million BTC divided by $400 B:
$33,333/BTC @ 1% of global M3
$166,666/BTC @ 5% of global M3